Muwubu16858
Green Belt
Where would I be able to find information on the Wandaun kata. I've found almost nothing except that it is in the list under Itosu Ha kata in the Book by Sakagami Ryusho.
Wandaun kata
- Thread starter Muwubu16858
- Start date
ppko
Master Black Belt
contact this guy it seems he studies this kata I personally dont know much about it so I will contact him as well
Grand Master Kenneth H. Balliet
20 Casey Drive, Williamsport, PA 17701
E-mail: Dr. Kenneth H. Balliet
Telephone: (570) 327-8645
chinto
Senior Master
Victor Smith
Blue Belt
The first reference I've seen of Wandaun kata is shown in Patrick McCarthy's older book on Okinawan Karate.
John Sells (which gives a brief explanation of the kata in his books Unanate and Unante II) has a video tape showing the form (or his version of it), and a quick search on youtube shows the following version (which appears to be copied from the McCarthy version).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLn9hM-k4O0&mode=related&search=
The form, IMO, seems to show Goju, Shorin and Uechin influences leading one to suspect 1) it is an older form that those traditions drew upon in their formation or 2) it is a newer form designed to link the main Okinawan traditions.
I'd suspect the latter as Uechi was not formally taught on Okinawan till about 1948, but you can make your own choice as I see it.
pleasantly,
John Sells (which gives a brief explanation of the kata in his books Unanate and Unante II) has a video tape showing the form (or his version of it), and a quick search on youtube shows the following version (which appears to be copied from the McCarthy version).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLn9hM-k4O0&mode=related&search=
The form, IMO, seems to show Goju, Shorin and Uechin influences leading one to suspect 1) it is an older form that those traditions drew upon in their formation or 2) it is a newer form designed to link the main Okinawan traditions.
I'd suspect the latter as Uechi was not formally taught on Okinawan till about 1948, but you can make your own choice as I see it.
pleasantly,
OP
OP
Muwubu16858
Green Belt
In the book I have, which is a book of Hyung by the late GM of Orthodox Itosu-ryu, Sakagami Ryusho, the Wandaun kata is listed under the Itosu Ha kata list. A few others that I was wondering about where I can get more info on were Chinshu(Itosu-ha), and a form pronounced shin ha writen
, and is under the list for Uechi Ryu ha kata.
, and is under the list for Uechi Ryu ha kata.Victor Smith
Blue Belt
Michael,
While chinsu is not in my interest (nor are other obscure kata references) I've taken a few minutes to do some research.
I've found a book describing chinsu here: http://www.karatedo.co.jp/champ/e_books/e_book.html
There is Scot Mertz that I recall was selling a dvd with his version of the form. I remember seeing it several years ago but was not my interest.
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/kar...p=144163&sid=f10533d2f862317e5381327b5af290ce
It is also said that the katas Chinpe, Chinsu, Juma, and Uenibu are of the lineage of Tomari, however, they were probably introduced in the 20th from Taiwan. http://www.msisshinryu.com/history/tomari-te/
Trying to find Shin Ha I found reference to Shin Pa http://www.dhammika-karatedo.com/Contact/Kata.htm
It may be some variant spelling of the original term?
All of which I found in a few mintues on a Google search.
Over my years I find it interesting to see what is there, but I'm always curious why one asks about forms from old lists?
Is it that they're obscure? Is it a thought that they hold some key other kata don't?
Personally old standards like Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho or Superimpe probably hold everything that really is there.
pleasantly,
While chinsu is not in my interest (nor are other obscure kata references) I've taken a few minutes to do some research.
I've found a book describing chinsu here: http://www.karatedo.co.jp/champ/e_books/e_book.html
There is Scot Mertz that I recall was selling a dvd with his version of the form. I remember seeing it several years ago but was not my interest.
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/kar...p=144163&sid=f10533d2f862317e5381327b5af290ce
It is also said that the katas Chinpe, Chinsu, Juma, and Uenibu are of the lineage of Tomari, however, they were probably introduced in the 20th from Taiwan. http://www.msisshinryu.com/history/tomari-te/
Trying to find Shin Ha I found reference to Shin Pa http://www.dhammika-karatedo.com/Contact/Kata.htm
It may be some variant spelling of the original term?
All of which I found in a few mintues on a Google search.
Over my years I find it interesting to see what is there, but I'm always curious why one asks about forms from old lists?
Is it that they're obscure? Is it a thought that they hold some key other kata don't?
Personally old standards like Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho or Superimpe probably hold everything that really is there.
pleasantly,
chinto
Senior Master
I think that I would tend to go with the latter choice from what I can see there.. but that is a very small amount of data to go by ...
chinto
Senior Master
I did not see any thing that was not in most of the kata mentioned as "old standerds" as to old form/Kata lists, might show some diferences in some cases in the style now and say 100 years or 200 years ago.. but then again it very well may not.
Greetings,
It was brought to my attention that you guys were wanting to know about Wanduan. So here is what I was told about it.
I learned this kata from Masamichi Daiyo. He told me that it was originally taught to him by Shigeru Nakamura in the 1950's. The kata's name means "The kings way", and it is also sometimes called Wando. Daiyo told me that it originally came over with Rohai and a few other kata.
Now in my travels I have seen some people doing a different version of this kata that what I know. The Motobu ha guys have a version which I have no idea where the origin is. The one that I do is very Goju-ish and nearly identical to the one that John Sells does.
I'm sorry this isn't the best of help, but it's what I have on the subject.
Scot
Scot Mertz
www.toudijutsu.com
It was brought to my attention that you guys were wanting to know about Wanduan. So here is what I was told about it.
I learned this kata from Masamichi Daiyo. He told me that it was originally taught to him by Shigeru Nakamura in the 1950's. The kata's name means "The kings way", and it is also sometimes called Wando. Daiyo told me that it originally came over with Rohai and a few other kata.
Now in my travels I have seen some people doing a different version of this kata that what I know. The Motobu ha guys have a version which I have no idea where the origin is. The one that I do is very Goju-ish and nearly identical to the one that John Sells does.
I'm sorry this isn't the best of help, but it's what I have on the subject.
Scot
Scot Mertz
www.toudijutsu.com
chinto
Senior Master
ok, thanks for the information.
It is not a kata that is tought in the system I study and I had asked about it a while back.
what systems is it tought in?
OP
OP
Muwubu16858
Green Belt
the list I have by Sakagami ryusho has Wandaun under Itosu-ha.
chinto
Senior Master
]
ok .. thanks.. if there are any other styles, I would hope they would chime in that they also use that kata...
When I studied Shotokan (SKIF (Kanazawas group))we had a Kata called "Wankan" meaning the kings crown or something to that effect.
It was a very short kata and legend has it that it is all that remains of a larger kata forgotten over the years. I can hardly remember it myself. If it is the same kata or a variant of it, you should be able to get a few clips online. I may have a clip in my computer at home if you can't find one.
-Marc-
It was a very short kata and legend has it that it is all that remains of a larger kata forgotten over the years. I can hardly remember it myself. If it is the same kata or a variant of it, you should be able to get a few clips online. I may have a clip in my computer at home if you can't find one.
-Marc-
chinto
Senior Master
ok, there are 2 systems that teach it.. Like I said , my system does not teach it so I have no Idea where it came from or its history.
Victor Smith
Blue Belt
Hi,
Wankan is a different kata from Wandaun.
I worked on it for a few years from Patrick McCarthy's book, and later saw that John Sells has a video tape on the kata. I haven't been able to find a group that incorporates it, it appears there may be individuals who use it in their schools. The one exception may be those people in Patrick McCarthy's group. If one is interested I contact Patrick McCarthy or John Sells.
Wankan is a different kata from Wandaun.
I worked on it for a few years from Patrick McCarthy's book, and later saw that John Sells has a video tape on the kata. I haven't been able to find a group that incorporates it, it appears there may be individuals who use it in their schools. The one exception may be those people in Patrick McCarthy's group. If one is interested I contact Patrick McCarthy or John Sells.
chinto
Senior Master
OK, Like I said earler we do not teach it in the style I study so am not fumilure with it...
Garcia_Hanshi
White Belt
Hello,
Thank you all for been interested in ancient Okinawan kata lineage, history, technical aspects, and practical usage of such.
Previous to 1905 and the conversion of old-type Okinawan Uchinadi (Okinawa-te) into modern Karate, katas did not form part of any standard curriculums. Ushinadi was taught to students based in two factors: developed skills, and personality.
Most ancient masters did reserved certain teachings for selected students.
This is the reason why there are several unknown or uncommon katas such as Wanduan (also Wandoh) kata.
Wanduan is a privately kept kata by very few experts who were luicky enough to have learn certain katas such as Wanduan.
Wanduan is a Chinese kata originated at the Shaolin temple, and pertains to the 5-Ancestors Fist. It is a highly combative pattern using as basis the 5-animal system of the Shaolin sect.
Based in certain technical peculiarities, Wanduan was devised at the Shaolin Fukien temple.
However, because of certain techniques it does presents, this pattern seems to have been modifien by experts from the Fukien White Crane Boxing.
This would explain many technical aspects of the kata, as well as the import of the pattern into Okinawa.
However, because it is a pattern meant to be reserved for very few, one must understand that there were very few Okinawans that could have gained the trust and that possesed the necessary advance knowledge and skills, along with been in possition to have learn such pattern.
Among those few Okinawans who could have ever learned this pattern based in the previous requirements, there were: Sokon Matsumura, Taitei Kojo, Seisho Arakaki, and some others. However, when the Kata is seen as who carried the kata in Okinawa and capable of teaching such advanced pattern, the list limits to the 3 previous mentioned masters.
Another factor to be taken in consideration is the fact that during the 1800's most Okinawans who trained in martial arts often shared knowledge with peers from different locations.
This is one of the reason why Wanduan is classify nowadays as a Tomari-te kata and not as Naha-te or as Shuri-te.
I learned this kata in Okinawa during the early 1960's and as far as I know, it was considered a secret kata with very few masters that knew it.
In Okinawa there are many lineages (ryu) that are not known in the western world because they are family ryu and have never been commercialized or opened to any outsider.
Wanduan kata is one of the treasures of old-type karate, if you manage to learn this kata, please preserve it intact and do not place any stylist input into it.
The name in Chinese translates as a name of a head of state (king).
In Okinawa it means the same, but it should not be confused with anyone's particular name. It is just a way to refer to a king who is a great martial artist.
A point that should also be clarified is that some people consider certain techniques as exclusive of Naha-te, Toimari-te or as Shuri-te styles; however, prior to this modern separation of styles and technical preferences, techniques where practiced as the combat method and not (as nowadays is done) because this or that technique or movement belongs to this or that style.
All modern styles are the product of particular masters presferences or techniques they could perform, leaving out those they did not mastered.
Do not think that this or that technique belongs to this or that particular style. In old-type karate, there was not such thing as this or that technique belonging to this or that style.
Remember, prior to 1932, there were very few Ryu in Okinawa, in fact there were only four ryu established, and only one Ryu during the 1800's which was formulated in 1830.
Thank you, hope you would benefit from this writting.
If you wish to communicate with me or have further questions, please contact me through this blog or write to our email address seitokan@hotmail.com
Have great trainings,
Garcia G. A., Hanshi
Thank you all for been interested in ancient Okinawan kata lineage, history, technical aspects, and practical usage of such.
Previous to 1905 and the conversion of old-type Okinawan Uchinadi (Okinawa-te) into modern Karate, katas did not form part of any standard curriculums. Ushinadi was taught to students based in two factors: developed skills, and personality.
Most ancient masters did reserved certain teachings for selected students.
This is the reason why there are several unknown or uncommon katas such as Wanduan (also Wandoh) kata.
Wanduan is a privately kept kata by very few experts who were luicky enough to have learn certain katas such as Wanduan.
Wanduan is a Chinese kata originated at the Shaolin temple, and pertains to the 5-Ancestors Fist. It is a highly combative pattern using as basis the 5-animal system of the Shaolin sect.
Based in certain technical peculiarities, Wanduan was devised at the Shaolin Fukien temple.
However, because of certain techniques it does presents, this pattern seems to have been modifien by experts from the Fukien White Crane Boxing.
This would explain many technical aspects of the kata, as well as the import of the pattern into Okinawa.
However, because it is a pattern meant to be reserved for very few, one must understand that there were very few Okinawans that could have gained the trust and that possesed the necessary advance knowledge and skills, along with been in possition to have learn such pattern.
Among those few Okinawans who could have ever learned this pattern based in the previous requirements, there were: Sokon Matsumura, Taitei Kojo, Seisho Arakaki, and some others. However, when the Kata is seen as who carried the kata in Okinawa and capable of teaching such advanced pattern, the list limits to the 3 previous mentioned masters.
Another factor to be taken in consideration is the fact that during the 1800's most Okinawans who trained in martial arts often shared knowledge with peers from different locations.
This is one of the reason why Wanduan is classify nowadays as a Tomari-te kata and not as Naha-te or as Shuri-te.
I learned this kata in Okinawa during the early 1960's and as far as I know, it was considered a secret kata with very few masters that knew it.
In Okinawa there are many lineages (ryu) that are not known in the western world because they are family ryu and have never been commercialized or opened to any outsider.
Wanduan kata is one of the treasures of old-type karate, if you manage to learn this kata, please preserve it intact and do not place any stylist input into it.
The name in Chinese translates as a name of a head of state (king).
In Okinawa it means the same, but it should not be confused with anyone's particular name. It is just a way to refer to a king who is a great martial artist.
A point that should also be clarified is that some people consider certain techniques as exclusive of Naha-te, Toimari-te or as Shuri-te styles; however, prior to this modern separation of styles and technical preferences, techniques where practiced as the combat method and not (as nowadays is done) because this or that technique or movement belongs to this or that style.
All modern styles are the product of particular masters presferences or techniques they could perform, leaving out those they did not mastered.
Do not think that this or that technique belongs to this or that particular style. In old-type karate, there was not such thing as this or that technique belonging to this or that style.
Remember, prior to 1932, there were very few Ryu in Okinawa, in fact there were only four ryu established, and only one Ryu during the 1800's which was formulated in 1830.
Thank you, hope you would benefit from this writting.
If you wish to communicate with me or have further questions, please contact me through this blog or write to our email address seitokan@hotmail.com
Have great trainings,
Garcia G. A., Hanshi
This echoes my experience. The traditional kata from Shuri, Naha, and Tomari are the essential kata. It is popular nowadays for people to seek some karate "Holy Grail" that will have all the secrets. Several wannabees claim to have found the "lost kata" Channan, from which the Pinan were developed. One even wrote an entire book on the subject. It was awful. Others are busy reverse engineering kata in order to insert grappling techniques or some other fad based bunkai.
There are too many self-styled "masters" out there trying to find an edge for marketing themselves. Shun them. Look more deeply into what you already have. My first sensei said, "Anyone who calls himself a master probably isn't."
CS—what is the actual problem with identifying grappling applications of various kata moves where these can be shown to be effective self-defense techniques? Funakoshi in his writings was explicit that locks, throws and other techniques that are standardly described as grappling elements were part of karate's technique set, so why is it implausible at the threshold to include such methods in bunkai? (And he was promoting a largely stripped-down version of karate to the Japanese, compared with what had been practiced on Okinawa.) Why does locating such bunkai elements not constitute part of the 'looking more deeply' that you're recommending?
I'm also curious as to which people you have in mind who are calling themselves `masters'. The people I'm familiar with who do the kind of expermimental bunkai analysis that you seem to be condemning in this broad-brush fashion include folks like Iain Abernethy, Rick Clark, Bill Burgar and other respected karateka, practitioners of long standing, whose work is out there, fully accessible, to be criticized or defended on its own basis; none of them, so far as I know from anything of theirs I've read, has ever referred to himself as a 'master'. You seem to be dismissing such people outright, while not saying anything about their actual analyses and proposals. Surely, if their approaches to kata are incorrect, it should be possible to give specifics, rather than dismiss the people themselves in a couple of sentences. So just what is there, for example, about Abernethy's analyses of the Pinan or Naihanchi bunkai, or Burgar's treatment of Gojushiho, that you think is unsound, and why is it unsound?
Granted, I painted with a pretty broad brush, and I really do not have anyone specific in mind. However, in my opinion and experience, there is too much reverse engineering/home cooking going on out there. I have seen Abernathy's stuff, and it isn't bad...but it isn't new, either. My impression of many of these folks is that they are suddenly re-discovering the wheel. Most of the so-called "new" applications I see that actually make sense in the context of the kata have been taught for decades by Higoshi, Kuniba, Hayashi, Demura, Higaonna and others. Most of the peopleI know who have been in Okinawan karate for any length of time know most of these bunkai.
There are too many self-styled "masters" out there who, in an effort to come up with something new and different, generally end up with something that doesn't fit the context of the kata or which won't work without a lot of modification.
Most of the kata have applications that have always been a part of the kata. Some were passed on, some were not. In many cases, it is impossible to know what the originators intended. Many first and second generation American instructors never learned all the bunkai, so they flew by the seat of their pants. The situation got better as more and more Japanese and Okinawan instructors began coming over here to teach, but there are still many gaps.
Certainly there are grappling techniques in many kata, but some people have gone overboard and find ground techniques in everything from gedan barai to mae tobi geri. I remind them that karate is primarily an atemi art that prefers standing on one's feet.
So, I supppose I am attempting to provide some balance and perspective. There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to find applications that work for kata for which you have not been taught bunkai. But, I think you have to be careful and try to have it make sense in the overall context of the kata. It also helps if it works on a resisting opponent.
