Wandaun kata

[exile]

Granted, I painted with a pretty broad brush, and I really do not have anyone specific in mind. However, in my opinion and experience, there is too much reverse engineering/home cooking going on out there.

I agree—there's a lot! And some is pretty implausible. The trick though is, always, sincere noncompliant testing, I think. What looks good on one's mental drawing board may not work out well in real time at all. Absolutely, that's a given.

I have seen Abernathy's stuff, and it isn't bad...but it isn't new, either. My impression of many of these folks is that they are suddenly re-discovering the wheel. Most of the so-called "new" applications I see that actually make sense in the context of the kata have been taught for decades by Higoshi, Kuniba, Hayashi, Demura, Higaonna and others. Most of the peopleI know who have been in Okinawan karate for any length of time know most of these bunkai.

Well, this may be the clue. I have the sense that a lot of sources for kata bunkai come from the Shotokan side, and these have tended, with the passing of time, to become more and more 'literal', if I can put it that way. If you're saying that a lot of the stuff that people like Abernethy are rediscovering was already known to the Okinawan practitioners, I'm perfectly ready to believe it. But the flip side is that the Okinawan perspective on those kata moves is probably a good deal less well known than certain standard Shotokan views. In Abernethy's case, I think what happened was, he trained in Shotokan and learned the standard line on kata bunkai, and over time became less and less convinced that this line represented the true effective application of the techs. So in a sense, you could see his 'career path' as his personal effort at reconstruction of the Okinawan interpretations from the base of disenchanted Shotokan.

There are too many self-styled "masters" out there who, in an effort to come up with something new and different, generally end up with something that doesn't fit the context of the kata or which won't work without a lot of modification.

Most of the kata have applications that have always been a part of the kata. Some were passed on, some were not. In many cases, it is impossible to know what the originators intended. Many first and second generation American instructors never learned all the bunkai, so they flew by the seat of their pants. The situation got better as more and more Japanese and Okinawan instructors began coming over here to teach, but there are still many gaps.

Yes. But I think it's a good thing that people have come to recognize, more and more, that the bunkai that came prepackaged with their training may very likely not be the original interpretations intended.

Certainly there are grappling techniques in many kata, but some people have gone overboard and find ground techniques in everything from gedan barai to mae tobi geri. I remind them that karate is primarily an atemi art that prefers standing on one's feet.

Right, and that is a point that Abernethy, for one, insists on: while there are ways of adapting the vertical controlling techs implicit in the kata to horizontal positions, the fact is that the actual techs themselves are vertical controlling moves. The name of the game is striking, and setting up those strikes.

So, I supppose I am attempting to provide some balance and perspective. There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to find applications that work for kata for which you have not been taught bunkai. But, I think you have to be careful and try to have it make sense in the overall context of the kata. It also helps if it works on a resisting opponent.

Can't argue with any of that! And especially, the emphasis on noncompliant training has to be the acid test.

 

[cstanley]

I agree—there's a lot! And some is pretty implausible. The trick though is, always, sincere noncompliant testing, I think. What looks good on one's mental drawing board may not work out well in real time at all. Absolutely, that's a given.




Well, this may be the clue. I have the sense that a lot of sources for kata bunkai come from the Shotokan side, and these have tended, with the passing of time, to become more and more 'literal', if I can put it that way. If you're saying that a lot of the stuff that people like Abernethy are rediscovering was already known to the Okinawan practitioners, I'm perfectly ready to believe it. But the flip side is that the Okinawan perspective on those kata moves is probably a good deal less well known than certain standard Shotokan views. In Abernethy's case, I think what happened was, he trained in Shotokan and learned the standard line on kata bunkai, and over time became less and less convinced that this line represented the true effective application of the techs. So in a sense, you could see his 'career path' as his personal effort at reconstruction of the Okinawan interpretations from the base of disenchanted Shotokan.



Yes. But I think it's a good thing that people have come to recognize, more and more, that the bunkai that came prepackaged with their training may very likely not be the original interpretations intended.



Right, and that is a point that Abernethy, for one, insists on: while there are ways of adapting the vertical controlling techs implicit in the kata to horizontal positions, the fact is that the actual techs themselves are vertical controlling moves. The name of the game is striking, and setting up those strikes.



Can't argue with any of that! And especially, the emphasis on noncompliant training has to be the acid test.

I think we are pretty much on the same page here. I think you are right on about the Shotokan thing. I have had a number of Shotokan dan come and train in our dojo, and some have become students. Their knowledge of bunkai is often limited, but they hit hard as Hell, are in shape, and they are very aggressive. As an instructor, I'll settle for that.:high5:

 

[TimoS]

Remember, prior to 1932, there were very few Ryu in Okinawa, in fact there were only four ryu established, and only one Ryu during the 1800's which was formulated in 1830.

Interesting. What ryu are we talking about? I know that Itosu wrote that there used to be two ryu, Shorin and Shorei ryu. Are you referring to these by any chance?

 

[cstanley]

Hello,
Thank you all for been interested in ancient Okinawan kata lineage, history, technical aspects, and practical usage of such.
Previous to 1905 and the conversion of old-type Okinawan Uchinadi (Okinawa-te) into modern Karate, katas did not form part of any standard curriculums. Ushinadi was taught to students based in two factors: developed skills, and personality.
Most ancient masters did reserved certain teachings for selected students.
This is the reason why there are several unknown or uncommon katas such as Wanduan (also Wandoh) kata.
Wanduan is a privately kept kata by very few experts who were luicky enough to have learn certain katas such as Wanduan.
Wanduan is a Chinese kata originated at the Shaolin temple, and pertains to the 5-Ancestors Fist. It is a highly combative pattern using as basis the 5-animal system of the Shaolin sect.
Based in certain technical peculiarities, Wanduan was devised at the Shaolin Fukien temple.
However, because of certain techniques it does presents, this pattern seems to have been modifien by experts from the Fukien White Crane Boxing.
This would explain many technical aspects of the kata, as well as the import of the pattern into Okinawa.
However, because it is a pattern meant to be reserved for very few, one must understand that there were very few Okinawans that could have gained the trust and that possesed the necessary advance knowledge and skills, along with been in possition to have learn such pattern.
Among those few Okinawans who could have ever learned this pattern based in the previous requirements, there were: Sokon Matsumura, Taitei Kojo, Seisho Arakaki, and some others. However, when the Kata is seen as who carried the kata in Okinawa and capable of teaching such advanced pattern, the list limits to the 3 previous mentioned masters.
Another factor to be taken in consideration is the fact that during the 1800's most Okinawans who trained in martial arts often shared knowledge with peers from different locations.
This is one of the reason why Wanduan is classify nowadays as a Tomari-te kata and not as Naha-te or as Shuri-te.
I learned this kata in Okinawa during the early 1960's and as far as I know, it was considered a secret kata with very few masters that knew it.
In Okinawa there are many lineages (ryu) that are not known in the western world because they are family ryu and have never been commercialized or opened to any outsider.
Wanduan kata is one of the treasures of old-type karate, if you manage to learn this kata, please preserve it intact and do not place any stylist input into it.
The name in Chinese translates as a name of a head of state (king).
In Okinawa it means the same, but it should not be confused with anyone's particular name. It is just a way to refer to a king who is a great martial artist.
A point that should also be clarified is that some people consider certain techniques as exclusive of Naha-te, Toimari-te or as Shuri-te styles; however, prior to this modern separation of styles and technical preferences, techniques where practiced as the combat method and not (as nowadays is done) because this or that technique or movement belongs to this or that style.
All modern styles are the product of particular masters presferences or techniques they could perform, leaving out those they did not mastered.
Do not think that this or that technique belongs to this or that particular style. In old-type karate, there was not such thing as this or that technique belonging to this or that style.
Remember, prior to 1932, there were very few Ryu in Okinawa, in fact there were only four ryu established, and only one Ryu during the 1800's which was formulated in 1830.
Thank you, hope you would benefit from this writting.
If you wish to communicate with me or have further questions, please contact me through this blog or write to our email address [email protected]
Have great trainings,
Garcia G. A., Hanshi

The first Okinawan ryu to be named was Goju. Myagi's students attended a big martial arts shiai in Japan and, upon their return, told Myagi that all the ryu in Japan had names. So, Myagi decided upon the name "Goju." This was around 1931. My understanding is the same as TimoS's...initially there were Shuri, Tomari, and Naha (te or ti), then the broad categories of Shorei and Shorin. Gradually, the various ryu developed from these traditions. There were, of course, family or village ryu which developed along a different path.

Please don't regale us with stories about the "secret knowledge" you got on Okinawa in the sixties because you were so special. There must be a thousand people in America running around with the same story.

Among the traditional ryu with which I am familiar, and among senior practitioners of those ryu, it is considered incorrect to refer to oneself as "Hanshi," "Shihan," or other such titles. "Hanshi" is not a title that is given based upon skill, either, as so many misguided people seem to imagine. It is more like "Monsignor" in the Church. It is an honorary title, meaning "so-and-so is a good guy and has contributed something to the ryu or kai," or something like that. To refer to oneself in such a way is though to be bad manners or, at the very least, tacky.

 

[exile]

The first Okinawan ryu to be named was Goju. Myagi's students attended a big martial arts shiai in Japan and, upon their return, told Myagi that all the ryu in Japan had names. So, Myagi decided upon the name "Goju." This was around 1931. My understanding is the same as TimoS's...initially there were Shuri, Tomari, and Naha (te or ti), then the broad categories of Shorei and Shorin. Gradually, the various ryu developed from these traditions. There were, of course, family or village ryu which developed along a different path.

Please don't regale us with stories about the "secret knowledge" you got on Okinawa in the sixties because you were so special. There must be a thousand people in America running around with the same story.

Among the traditional ryu with which I am familiar, and among senior practitioners of those ryu, it is considered incorrect to refer to oneself as "Hanshi," "Shihan," or other such titles. "Hanshi" is not a title that is given based upon skill, either, as so many misguided people seem to imagine. It is more like "Monsignor" in the Church. It is an honorary title, meaning "so-and-so is a good guy and has contributed something to the ryu or kai," or something like that. To refer to oneself in such a way is though to be bad manners or, at the very least, tacky.

Many good points in this post, CS! :wink1:

The whole mantra of almost-lost-secret-lore-to-which-only-a-select-few-are-privy gets really tiresome, doesn't it....

 

[chinto01]

Hello,
Thank you all for been interested in ancient Okinawan kata lineage, history, technical aspects, and practical usage of such.
Previous to 1905 and the conversion of old-type Okinawan Uchinadi (Okinawa-te) into modern Karate, katas did not form part of any standard curriculums. Ushinadi was taught to students based in two factors: developed skills, and personality.
Most ancient masters did reserved certain teachings for selected students.
This is the reason why there are several unknown or uncommon katas such as Wanduan (also Wandoh) kata.
Wanduan is a privately kept kata by very few experts who were luicky enough to have learn certain katas such as Wanduan.
Wanduan is a Chinese kata originated at the Shaolin temple, and pertains to the 5-Ancestors Fist. It is a highly combative pattern using as basis the 5-animal system of the Shaolin sect.
Based in certain technical peculiarities, Wanduan was devised at the Shaolin Fukien temple.
However, because of certain techniques it does presents, this pattern seems to have been modifien by experts from the Fukien White Crane Boxing.
This would explain many technical aspects of the kata, as well as the import of the pattern into Okinawa.
However, because it is a pattern meant to be reserved for very few, one must understand that there were very few Okinawans that could have gained the trust and that possesed the necessary advance knowledge and skills, along with been in possition to have learn such pattern.
Among those few Okinawans who could have ever learned this pattern based in the previous requirements, there were: Sokon Matsumura, Taitei Kojo, Seisho Arakaki, and some others. However, when the Kata is seen as who carried the kata in Okinawa and capable of teaching such advanced pattern, the list limits to the 3 previous mentioned masters.
Another factor to be taken in consideration is the fact that during the 1800's most Okinawans who trained in martial arts often shared knowledge with peers from different locations.
This is one of the reason why Wanduan is classify nowadays as a Tomari-te kata and not as Naha-te or as Shuri-te.
I learned this kata in Okinawa during the early 1960's and as far as I know, it was considered a secret kata with very few masters that knew it.
In Okinawa there are many lineages (ryu) that are not known in the western world because they are family ryu and have never been commercialized or opened to any outsider.
Wanduan kata is one of the treasures of old-type karate, if you manage to learn this kata, please preserve it intact and do not place any stylist input into it.
The name in Chinese translates as a name of a head of state (king).
In Okinawa it means the same, but it should not be confused with anyone's particular name. It is just a way to refer to a king who is a great martial artist.
A point that should also be clarified is that some people consider certain techniques as exclusive of Naha-te, Toimari-te or as Shuri-te styles; however, prior to this modern separation of styles and technical preferences, techniques where practiced as the combat method and not (as nowadays is done) because this or that technique or movement belongs to this or that style.
All modern styles are the product of particular masters presferences or techniques they could perform, leaving out those they did not mastered.
Do not think that this or that technique belongs to this or that particular style. In old-type karate, there was not such thing as this or that technique belonging to this or that style.
Remember, prior to 1932, there were very few Ryu in Okinawa, in fact there were only four ryu established, and only one Ryu during the 1800's which was formulated in 1830.
Thank you, hope you would benefit from this writting.
If you wish to communicate with me or have further questions, please contact me through this blog or write to our email address [email protected]
Have great trainings,
Garcia G. A., Hanshi

Thanks for your input on this thread. It was very informative. Does anyone have a video of this form?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[HankinSalem]

As a student of John Sells, I've learned the kata Wando or Wanduan from him and teach it to my advanced students.

What questions do you have about the kata? It is a nice form, the version that we practice is a "karatefied" version, not the original long Chinese version which I believe John knows and practices.

Wando could easily fit into a Goju-ryu syllabus and not stand out particularly, unlike the Aragaki kata Niseishi, which, to my eyes is very "kung-fuey" in it's movment and applications, at least in the version we practice in seito shito-ryu.

BTW, the kata Shinpa that someone (Victor?) mentioned is one created by Mabuni Kenwa.

 

[chinto01]

I have seen the youtube video of this form. How similar is this compared to the form you do?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[TimoS]

It was brought to my attention that you guys were wanting to know about Wanduan. So here is what I was told about it.

I learned this kata from Masamichi Daiyo. He told me that it was originally taught to him by Shigeru Nakamura in the 1950's

Interesting. Then why do you on another forum say that you learned the kata from a friend, who learned it from John Sells? Actually in there you give two sources for who taught you the kata: Nakamura sensei in Naha and the aforementioned friend. So which of these three individuals did you learn the kata from?

 

[Garcia_Hanshi]

Hello,
This is to answer Mr. cstanley

First - The first Ryu to be registered in Dai Nippon Butokukai indeed was Goju-ryu in 1930. However, if you research a little bit more, you will find that Choshin Chibana was already writting his style as Kobayashi since 1920, that Yasutsune Ankoh Itosu was referring to his Karate as Shorin-ryu since around 1908, that Taitei Kojo was referring to his family art as Kojo-ryu since 1875, that Isei Kojo and his ancestors were also using Kojo-ryu as a family art since the mid-1800's, that Sokon Matsumura referred to his teachings as Shorin-ryu since 1830, that the Motobu family referred to their art as Motobu-ryu since the 1800's. Therefore, there are other Ryu that indeed existed in Okinawa and even used a name way before Chojun Miyagi used Goju Ryu for his art. However, because Uchinadi was practiced without the government authorization, these lineages (Ryu) were used only in closed circles. Does that mean that there was no other style previous to Goju-ryu?

Second - I am not boating about anything in my writting, I merely stated that to my understanding Kata such as Wanduan (Wandoh) were not part of any formal open curriculum and that indeed there were some masters who did know and teach the Kata in close circles. I am not anyone special proclaiming to have learned any secrets in Okinawa. There are many Katas (as well as lineage's "ryu") which no-one have heard of and that to this day still kept private in family circles. You should perhaps stop listening to those who talk for talk and contact serious instructors such as Hanshi John Sells, and ask respectfully about material and information he might know and teach that is not common to the general Karate community. A good example of this fact is the Katas that Ryuei-ryu and other non-common lineage's teach which until not long ago were not even heard of, but indeed did exist and were preserved within small circles.

Third - In regards to the titles I would only say this: I did not auto-proclaimed been a Hanshi licensed holder, the license was issued to me years ago, as many others legitimate Hanshi license holders. Hanshi is not a title, is a teaching license. The fact that when someone has a license and as professional, indicates his license after his name, has nothing to do with autoproclaiming anything, it has to do with proper identification in a field by such licensee. To place the "Hanshi" before the name, yes it is considered rude and inpolite, but to sign using your license after your name is considered proper. My students refer to me as sensei, not by license. I do NOT consider myself a "master" or a "grandmaster", I am simply a martial arts student and practitioner whoi after more than 50 years in this field still study and learn.

Fourth - I got in here to share some information about a certain ancient Kata, not to argue with anyone. If my writting or my person is not of everyone's please in here, I will simply abandon this site and will not recomend it for it would be a blog for arguments and controversy; and that is not where I like to be. Martial arts philosophy teaches respect, and if you are a martial artist you should not be disrespectful to someone just because you don't know the person, or because you might disagree with someone.

Thank you, have a good day everyone and continue your trainings
Goodbye

 

[TimoS]

Fourth - I got in here to share some information about a certain ancient Kata, not to argue with anyone. If my writting or my person is not of everyone's please in here, I will simply abandon this site and will not recomend it for it would be a blog for arguments and controversy

Come now, if you've been in the martial arts as long as you say you have (longer than I've been alive), you must've realized already that nobody can please everybody. There will always be arguments.

The history part of your message I will have to concentrate on later, because there are some issues that are in conflict with what I've been told, but I want to review those issues with my contacts

 

[chinto01]

Hello,
This is to answer Mr. cstanley

First - The first Ryu to be registered in Dai Nippon Butokukai indeed was Goju-ryu in 1930. However, if you research a little bit more, you will find that Choshin Chibana was already writting his style as Kobayashi since 1920, that Yasutsune Ankoh Itosu was referring to his Karate as Shorin-ryu since around 1908, that Taitei Kojo was referring to his family art as Kojo-ryu since 1875, that Isei Kojo and his ancestors were also using Kojo-ryu as a family art since the mid-1800's, that Sokon Matsumura referred to his teachings as Shorin-ryu since 1830, that the Motobu family referred to their art as Motobu-ryu since the 1800's. Therefore, there are other Ryu that indeed existed in Okinawa and even used a name way before Chojun Miyagi used Goju Ryu for his art. However, because Uchinadi was practiced without the government authorization, these lineages (Ryu) were used only in closed circles. Does that mean that there was no other style previous to Goju-ryu?

Second - I am not boating about anything in my writting, I merely stated that to my understanding Kata such as Wanduan (Wandoh) were not part of any formal open curriculum and that indeed there were some masters who did know and teach the Kata in close circles. I am not anyone special proclaiming to have learned any secrets in Okinawa. There are many Katas (as well as lineage's "ryu") which no-one have heard of and that to this day still kept private in family circles. You should perhaps stop listening to those who talk for talk and contact serious instructors such as Hanshi John Sells, and ask respectfully about material and information he might know and teach that is not common to the general Karate community. A good example of this fact is the Katas that Ryuei-ryu and other non-common lineage's teach which until not long ago were not even heard of, but indeed did exist and were preserved within small circles.

Third - In regards to the titles I would only say this: I did not auto-proclaimed been a Hanshi licensed holder, the license was issued to me years ago, as many others legitimate Hanshi license holders. Hanshi is not a title, is a teaching license. The fact that when someone has a license and as professional, indicates his license after his name, has nothing to do with autoproclaiming anything, it has to do with proper identification in a field by such licensee. To place the "Hanshi" before the name, yes it is considered rude and inpolite, but to sign using your license after your name is considered proper. My students refer to me as sensei, not by license. I do NOT consider myself a "master" or a "grandmaster", I am simply a martial arts student and practitioner whoi after more than 50 years in this field still study and learn.

Fourth - I got in here to share some information about a certain ancient Kata, not to argue with anyone. If my writting or my person is not of everyone's please in here, I will simply abandon this site and will not recomend it for it would be a blog for arguments and controversy; and that is not where I like to be. Martial arts philosophy teaches respect, and if you are a martial artist you should not be disrespectful to someone just because you don't know the person, or because you might disagree with someone.

Thank you, have a good day everyone and continue your trainings
Goodbye

As I posted before I found your posting in regards to this kata very informative. I would encourage you to stick around and interact more on this site. I have been here for a couple of years and I have seen a great deal of debate on certain topics. In the end nobody wins if you just take your ball and go home. I will once again repeat my instructor who says "Everybody's karate is #1." The more I examine that statement the more I believe it.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[cstanley]

Hello,
This is to answer Mr. cstanley

First - The first Ryu to be registered in Dai Nippon Butokukai indeed was Goju-ryu in 1930. However, if you research a little bit more, you will find that Choshin Chibana was already writting his style as Kobayashi since 1920, that Yasutsune Ankoh Itosu was referring to his Karate as Shorin-ryu since around 1908, that Taitei Kojo was referring to his family art as Kojo-ryu since 1875, that Isei Kojo and his ancestors were also using Kojo-ryu as a family art since the mid-1800's, that Sokon Matsumura referred to his teachings as Shorin-ryu since 1830, that the Motobu family referred to their art as Motobu-ryu since the 1800's. Therefore, there are other Ryu that indeed existed in Okinawa and even used a name way before Chojun Miyagi used Goju Ryu for his art. However, because Uchinadi was practiced without the government authorization, these lineages (Ryu) were used only in closed circles. Does that mean that there was no other style previous to Goju-ryu?

Second - I am not boating about anything in my writting, I merely stated that to my understanding Kata such as Wanduan (Wandoh) were not part of any formal open curriculum and that indeed there were some masters who did know and teach the Kata in close circles. I am not anyone special proclaiming to have learned any secrets in Okinawa. There are many Katas (as well as lineage's "ryu") which no-one have heard of and that to this day still kept private in family circles. You should perhaps stop listening to those who talk for talk and contact serious instructors such as Hanshi John Sells, and ask respectfully about material and information he might know and teach that is not common to the general Karate community. A good example of this fact is the Katas that Ryuei-ryu and other non-common lineage's teach which until not long ago were not even heard of, but indeed did exist and were preserved within small circles.

Third - In regards to the titles I would only say this: I did not auto-proclaimed been a Hanshi licensed holder, the license was issued to me years ago, as many others legitimate Hanshi license holders. Hanshi is not a title, is a teaching license. The fact that when someone has a license and as professional, indicates his license after his name, has nothing to do with autoproclaiming anything, it has to do with proper identification in a field by such licensee. To place the "Hanshi" before the name, yes it is considered rude and inpolite, but to sign using your license after your name is considered proper. My students refer to me as sensei, not by license. I do NOT consider myself a "master" or a "grandmaster", I am simply a martial arts student and practitioner whoi after more than 50 years in this field still study and learn.

Fourth - I got in here to share some information about a certain ancient Kata, not to argue with anyone. If my writting or my person is not of everyone's please in here, I will simply abandon this site and will not recomend it for it would be a blog for arguments and controversy; and that is not where I like to be. Martial arts philosophy teaches respect, and if you are a martial artist you should not be disrespectful to someone just because you don't know the person, or because you might disagree with someone.

Thank you, have a good day everyone and continue your trainings
Goodbye

Don't let the door hit you in the *** on your way out.

 

[chinto01]

cstanley I must admit I found your last post to be a bit strong. Are we all not here to learn from one another? I thought these forums were a place for all of us to exchange ideas and try to link the past together and have it make some sense while getting other peoples opinions. I think we would all agree that comments like yours will do nothing but drive people away from internet forums like this and in the long run not help anyone. Not knowing anything about this kata myself I found Garcia Hanshi's post informative right, wrong, or indifferent it was still his opinion and now we have lost a resource in learning any more about this kata from him possibly because of your strongly worded last post. I hope that in the future he returns.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[TimoS]

First - The first Ryu to be registered in Dai Nippon Butokukai indeed was Goju-ryu in 1930. However, if you research a little bit more, you will find that Choshin Chibana was already writting his style as Kobayashi since 1920, that Yasutsune Ankoh Itosu was referring to his Karate as Shorin-ryu since around 1908, that Taitei Kojo was referring to his family art as Kojo-ryu since 1875, that Isei Kojo and his ancestors were also using Kojo-ryu as a family art since the mid-1800's, that Sokon Matsumura referred to his teachings as Shorin-ryu since 1830, that the Motobu family referred to their art as Motobu-ryu since the 1800's. Therefore, there are other Ryu that indeed existed in Okinawa and even used a name way before Chojun Miyagi used Goju Ryu for his art. However, because Uchinadi was practiced without the government authorization, these lineages (Ryu) were used only in closed circles. Does that mean that there was no other style previous to Goju-ryu?

Sure there were styles before the name Goju ryu was established, but named ryu? I seriously doubt that! Just an example, Kyan Chotoku's karate was simply known as Chan Migwa (or Migua, I've seen both used) ti. I would love to see where you've gotten the information that says Itosu used the name Shorin ryu of his style, especially as early as 1908 or that Matsumura called his teachings Shorin ryu already back 1830. Can you back these claims by any documents? Or are they simply stories passed by word of mouth? If so, then sorry, that really doesn't count as proof. Stories get changed, because people are people (I think you are familiar with this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_telephone). Oh and as for Chibana, according to the information I received, he registered his style in 1933. Sure, he must've called it Shorin ryu prior to that, but I think 1920 is stretching things. Why would he wait 13 years to officially register his style? Again, I would love to see proof of your claims

 

[cstanley]

cstanley I must admit I found your last post to be a bit strong. Are we all not here to learn from one another? I thought these forums were a place for all of us to exchange ideas and try to link the past together and have it make some sense while getting other peoples opinions. I think we would all agree that comments like yours will do nothing but drive people away from internet forums like this and in the long run not help anyone. Not knowing anything about this kata myself I found Garcia Hanshi's post informative right, wrong, or indifferent it was still his opinion and now we have lost a resource in learning any more about this kata from him possibly because of your strongly worded last post. I hope that in the future he returns.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

Garcia was wrong, insisted he was right, and full of himself. It is a funny thing about many of these forums: if someone calls someone on their nonsense or questions claims or titles, that is considered disrespectful. In my opinion, it is far more disrespectful toward the members here for people to come on here with half-baked "research," sporting improper or phony titles and rank, and making statements about "history" and "theory" that are baloney. I would rather someone speak a bit harshly toward someone than for somebody to come on here assuming we are all idiots. THAT is real disrespect. I still hope that door doesn't hit him in the ***.

 

[Tez3]

Don't let the door hit you in the *** on your way out.

Why would he let a door hit his donkey?

As they say on Father Ted "****".

 

[Myrmidon]

Garcia was wrong, insisted he was right, and full of himself. It is a funny thing about many of these forums: if someone calls someone on their nonsense or questions claims or titles, that is considered disrespectful. In my opinion, it is far more disrespectful toward the members here for people to come on here with half-baked "research," sporting improper or phony titles and rank, and making statements about "history" and "theory" that are baloney. I would rather someone speak a bit harshly toward someone than for somebody to come on here assuming we are all idiots. THAT is real disrespect. I still hope that door doesn't hit him in the ***.

Although I agree with you in many aspects, specially in the usage of certain titles, we should always try to be as polite as possible. I think that it would be better to discuss the issues in controversy rather than being dismissive towards others.

 

[Myrmidon]

If this is Wanduan/Wando(h) kata, it is basically a composite kata containing movements from several Goju Ryu kata such as Seisan, Pechurin, Seiunchin and Kururunfa. It also has a couple of movements from the Uechi Ryu Seisan and a couple of movements that could be from some Shorin Ryu kata.

 

[Tez3]

If this is Wanduan/Wando(h) kata, it is basically a composite kata containing movements from several Goju Ryu kata such as Seisan, Pechurin, Seiunchin and Kururunfa. It also has a couple of movements from the Uechi Ryu Seisan and a couple of movements that could be from some Shorin Ryu kata.

Seems an interesting kata. I have no one to teach it to me though. I will learn anything from anyone, I have no interest in scoring points on forums as to the exclusiveness of my styles. Nor will I judge others on a forum.
People will always express opinions that others will consider wrong, how boring would it be if we all thought the same, shades of 1984. However, no one should set themselves up to be an arbiter of just who is telling the 'truth' and who isn't, it's no one's job here to be harsh to another poster.
another point to bear in mind that for many of the posters on here English is not their first language nor for many is writing and expressing themselves in words always an easy thing.
I admire passion in a person for what they do and what they believe but never at the cost of hurting another.