Walk away or stand and deliver

[silatman]

Judging from the posts around here this thread isnt going to make me many friends but I just cant understand the walkaway at any cost mentality.
Are we martial artists or not.

Let me make this clear right at the word go I DO NOT GO OUT LOOKING FOR FIGHTS!!!

What I'm asking in this post is if you are confronted by a street punk or drunk guy or who ever it is that wants to start on you why should we keep on trying to the endth degree to get to a passive outcome. Make it clear that you DO NOT want trouble as soon as you can but if the guy (usually) still keeps coming then I'm afraid that I will stand my ground and let him know that he just made a mistake(all things going well). Maybe I win the fight maybe I wont but I will not be the only one going home sore and maybe doing that the next time that he thinks about picking on someone maybe he might remember me.

I can just hear the "two wrongs dont make a right", "why beat up a guy who you know you can beat" etc, etc comments, but I say to hell with these bullys!
How many times do we have to read in the papers about old ladies being bashed or kids being kicked half to death before we as the rest of the population say enough is enough. If everytime one of these people make the mistake of trying it on with somebody who just happens to know a little something gets flogged, chalk up 1 for the good guys.
I'm not in anyway condoneing a vigilatante type response only protecting yourself forcefully after giving them a warning, not giving them 6.

I really believe that the only way to get society as it has become to change is to play the game using their rules. The punks and drug addict scum started this fight why should we let them keep winning, and dont kid yourself they are winning.

 

[MA-Caver]

Judging from the posts around here this thread isnt going to make me many friends but I just cant understand the walkaway at any cost mentality.
Are we martial artists or not.

Let me make this clear right at the word go I DO NOT GO OUT LOOKING FOR FIGHTS!!!

What I'm asking in this post is if you are confronted by a street punk or drunk guy or who ever it is that wants to start on you why should we keep on trying to the endth degree to get to a passive outcome. Make it clear that you DO NOT want trouble as soon as you can but if the guy (usually) still keeps coming then I'm afraid that I will stand my ground and let him know that he just made a mistake(all things going well). Maybe I win the fight maybe I wont but I will not be the only one going home sore and maybe doing that the next time that he thinks about picking on someone maybe he might remember me.

I can just hear the "two wrongs dont make a right", "why beat up a guy who you know you can beat" etc, etc comments, but I say to hell with these bullys!
How many times do we have to read in the papers about old ladies being bashed or kids being kicked half to death before we as the rest of the population say enough is enough. If everytime one of these people make the mistake of trying it on with somebody who just happens to know a little something gets flogged, chalk up 1 for the good guys.
I'm not in anyway condoneing a vigilatante type response only protecting yourself forcefully after giving them a warning, not giving them 6.

I really believe that the only way to get society as it has become to change is to play the game using their rules. The punks and drug addict scum started this fight why should we let them keep winning, and dont kid yourself they are winning.

Funny, this happened to me last week at work. We were tossing garbage from our truck into our dumpster. Two of the guys were on the truck and I was on the ground picking up whatever they missed. They got careless and tossed one of the boxes too enthusiastically, filled with heavy material of broken wood and other stuff and it nearly konks me on the head. They saw it, I know they saw it because they were immediately laughing then one of them calls out (jokingly) "watch out there Ralph!" then both bust up laughing again.
I look up and then say nothing and walk off leaving them to do MY job as well as theirs and go on to find something else.
One of them calls out to me and is trying to tell me something (sorry? or "there's a pick up" ... we work at a furniture store btw). I didn't hear him and he calls out more forcefully and I spun on him and said; Next time be more careful pendejo! (both are latinos).
Ten minutes later the guy is seeking me out and wants to "have words" with me. Oh boy ... here we go. I told him that we were not having any words but he insists on knowing what I said (apparently he didn't hear what I said either ... we were outside and by a noisy street). I told him it wasn't important and planned on leaving it at that. But of course no he doesn't (he's 20+ years younger than me and apparently thinks he has a bigger .... than I do). Told me the usual "we'll talk about this ... later" in that oh-so-familiar-ominous-tone-of-voice I'm like yeah yeah whatever!
Later comes and it's "confrontation time" ... I just walk away. ... towards the office to talk with our boss about something totally unrelated. Of course this immediately defuses the situation. Twenty minutes after that we're alone in the back of the store and I told him what I said and he looked at me like "why did you say that?" and I told him why. He says ... oh... and mumbles an apology.
Should I have stood him down? Well, he does out weigh me by about 170 lbs and is younger and definitely stronger (able to pick up and carry a king size mattress by himself with ease ... go ahead try it).
No, even if we waited til we clocked out and was off company property and bla bla bla bla... I still wouldn't have mixed it up with him. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what I know and doesn't know that I've taken guys bigger than him before (in my younger days ) and thusly I'm not intimidated by him at all... besides on any-other day we actually like each other and get along very nicely on the job. So why screw that up with a school-yard fight?

Choosing your battles is the key here and choosing them wisely. Don't make the other guy(s) choose them for you. That's just plain stupid.
I've said it before on other threads and dozens here on MT have agreed with me in one fashion or another. There - is - NO - shame - in - walking/running - away . Martial Arts is supposed to be defensive isn't it? So use it when there's no alternative. No place to run walk away to? ... okay now kick their asses!

Also I like what someone on MT sig says... Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

 

[silatman]

Mate firstly bravo for wlking away from this one, one of the reasons I train is to protect my family and part of that requires a roof over their heads and food in their bellies and you cant provide that without a job.
I know there will be lots of examples such as this where the guy really needs an attitude adjustment but like you say fighting is not always the answer.
I guess my focus on this issue is more directed at the street punk element, you know the type, wouldn't work in an iron lung, thinks the world owes them something, all the time in the world and nothing to fill it but more mates with the same.
Real heros!!
This is the guy who comes up to you and asks for a smoke or some change then goes off on you as if its your fault for not providing him with what he wants.
In my opinion **** HIM!!, if he pushes his luck then he deserves the consequences.
Oh and I think the judged by 12 carried by 6 works in my favour, society has had enough

 

[Adept]

but I will not be the only one going home sore and maybe doing that the next time that he thinks about picking on someone maybe he might remember me.

Sure. And maybe while you are in the hospital getting treated for the hepatitis you received from his cut face, you will think about him.

Think about this - Would you voluntarily pick up a needle off the street and stab yourself with it?

No (at least, I hope not).

Then why would you willingly exchange bodily fluids with some random crackhead on the street?

Added to that there is the threat of litigation. Added to that there is the threat of escalation. Added to that there is the threat of the unknown. Who knows if the drunk in the bar is alone, or if his mates are going to hold him back or help him? Who knows if you might slip on a patch of oil and get shot or stabbed?

Why take the risk if you don't have to?

 

[MJS]

Yes, there is that fine line that we have to consider. Do we do our best to talk our way out or do we just go off on the person. IMO, its always best to attempt to talk our way out first, if we can. Granted, we may not always have the chance to do that, but at least an attempt was made. Being aware of whats going on is key. If the person confronting you continues to advance towards you, and your talking him down seems to not be working, of course defending yourself is your only option left. Be it turning around and running or staying there, something needs to be done because the talking is no longer working.

There was an incident recently in CT. in which a young kid was walking home with some friends from an after prom party. A car pulled up and the guy inside got out and started screaming at the group. Prior to this, one member of the group had just broken up a fight between 2 girls that was occuring on the street. Apparently this guy in the car did not like the idea of these kids getting involved with things on "his turf", so he proceeded to punch this kid in the face. The kid fell back, hitting his head on the sidewalk. He got back in the car and left. 2 days later that kid died in the hospital due to that fall. Did he try to talk his way out? I have no idea. But IMHO I don't think talking would have worked.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

It all depends on what you think could be worth dying (or facing jail time) over. Every confrontation contains that possibility. Over protecting your family is one thing...over a parking spot is another.

 

[arnisador]

Talk first. Walk away if you can. You can never tell when he'll pull a knife/pull a gun/have two friends join him/whatever.

Time and again I read a story that emphasizes what my JKD instructor often warns about: You get in a shoving match with someone at a party, someone separates the people, then two hours later as you're leaving the guy jumps you with two of his buddies. It would've been better to leave the party after the altercation to prevent this.

Smart self-defense means getting away safely. Sometimes that means fighting, but why take a risk?

 

[searcher]

This makes me think of the movie The Untochables with Sean Connery and Kevin Costner. There is a part where they are sitting in a church and Connery tells Costner, "If he pulls a knife, You pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, You send one of his to the morgue." What I am saying is that you can not forsee if the words will escalate to violence. If it does you don't know where it will end.

I agree that you should talk and then walk if you can, but be prepared to get with it. With the situation described by MACaver, the best thing was to walk. But if it had come to blows with there being two of them and with them being younger, larger, and stronger you are going to have to hurt them to stop them. This might even go as far as killing one of them, better to go home at the end of the day with a clear conscience and no criminal record.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Maybe I win the fight maybe I wont but I will not be the only one going home sore and maybe doing that the next time that he thinks about picking on someone maybe he might remember me.

I can just hear the "two wrongs dont make a right", "why beat up a guy who you know you can beat" etc, etc comments, but I say to hell with these bullys!
How many times do we have to read in the papers about old ladies being bashed or kids being kicked half to death before we as the rest of the population say enough is enough. If everytime one of these people make the mistake of trying it on with somebody who just happens to know a little something gets flogged, chalk up 1 for the good guys.
I'm not in anyway condoneing a vigilatante type response only protecting yourself forcefully after giving them a warning, not giving them 6.

I really believe that the only way to get society as it has become to change is to play the game using their rules. The punks and drug addict scum started this fight why should we let them keep winning, and dont kid yourself they are winning.

First off, I sympathize with your frustration. There are a LOT of jerks and bullies out there looking for trouble.

You have to ask yourself; though, if I get the better of him, will this teach him a lesson or will it enrage him to the extent that he batters his next victim to death?

Also, as the other posters have pointed out; people do carry KNIVES and GUNS. Knives are even more common than you think. You may be able to hit him five to one but if his one is from a blade, well...

I know it is easy to pontificate from the cheap internet seat here. We've all run into bullies, whether physical bullies or office bullies, and we've all faced the same question - how much to take? Try picking up a book such as "Verbal Judo" (forget the author's name) or "Coping with Difficult People" (Bamford?). There's no easy way to face this situation and sometimes you have to leave a neighborhood or a job if it gets out of hand.

 

[MA-Caver]

This makes me think of the movie The Untochables with Sean Connery and Kevin Costner. There is a part where they are sitting in a church and Connery tells Costner, "If he pulls a knife, You pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, You send one of his to the morgue." What I am saying is that you can not forsee if the words will escalate to violence. If it does you don't know where it will end.

I agree that you should talk and then walk if you can, but be prepared to get with it. With the situation described by MACaver, the best thing was to walk. But if it had come to blows with there being two of them and with them being younger, larger, and stronger you are going to have to hurt them to stop them. This might even go as far as killing one of them, better to go home at the end of the day with a clear conscience and no criminal record.

No, I doubt that I would've gone as far as to kill the person... it's possible it's even likely accidental, but knowing when to stop is also one of the fundemental keys to winning a fight. Knowing that this blow will (or should ) put them down long enough for you to move away.
I feel very confident in my abilities that I will know when to stop before it comes to the point of death. Accidents do happen yes, but control and staying calm helps prevent them.
Or maybe I'm just blowing smoke... But seriously if the altercation got to that point then I'd do what ever I could to end it quickly as possible and with as minimal hurt TO ME as possible.

In his series Thomas Coveant The Unbeliever, Stephen R. Donaldson wrote something that I found very useful. It's called the oath of peace:

Do not hurt where holding is enough, do not wound where hurting is enough, do not maim where wounding is enough, do not kill where maiming is enough, the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill.

 

[silatman]

Sure. And maybe while you are in the hospital getting treated for the hepatitis you received from his cut face, you will think about him.

Think about this - Would you voluntarily pick up a needle off the street and stab yourself with it?

No (at least, I hope not).

Then why would you willingly exchange bodily fluids with some random crackhead on the street?

Added to that there is the threat of litigation. Added to that there is the threat of escalation. Added to that there is the threat of the unknown. Who knows if the drunk in the bar is alone, or if his mates are going to hold him back or help him? Who knows if you might slip on a patch of oil and get shot or stabbed?

Why take the risk if you don't have to?

Life is a risk, do you drive a car?, do you cross a street?
Do you really think a crack head is going to sue you?

 

[silatman]

Just want to put out a blanket apology to everyone on MT for the use of profanity in my above posts.
Im just a little passionate about this issue (and some others)
Sorry if I have offended anybody :asian:
I will not do this again.

 

[MJS]

Life is a risk, do you drive a car?, do you cross a street?

I know this was directed at Adepts post, but I'll throw in my .02. You bring up some good points. Everyday we wake up, we run the risk of something happening to us. However, we can do our best to avoid situations. Sure we drive, but exercising caution is important if we want to avoid an accident. We don't just walk across the street, without taking into consideration the cars on the roadway. We still look both ways before we cross. Taking these pre-cautionary steps in a way is the same as attempting to avoid a physical situation.

Do you really think a crack head is going to sue you?

Stranger things have happened. Don't forget, that guy who is attempting to rob you to support a habit may have a family, who in their eyes, thinks that he is the most wonderful person in the world, and would never stoop so low as to rob someone, and if you end up killing him, may face a suit from the family.

Mike

 

[Drac]

They can stand there and woof all they want and I'll attempt to play the peacemaker..If they swing then I land a haymaker..This is both on an off the job..

 

[searcher]

MACaver, in the heat of a fight it is not uncommon to take it to far and permanently hurt or even kill someone. It is more than being willing to stop or being able to know when to stop. When you have an adrenaline dump it is very easy to over-do it.

 

[hammer]

Simply common sense must apply, "Time and place" Yet generally would be more than happy to accommodate.

Cheers

 

[KyleShort]

They are winning? I thinks hands down the majority of the people that live in the civilized world are not street punks and crack heads...they are civilized. In truth, though I may have little encounters here and there, it has been MANY years since I absolutely had to fight. You aren't Batman. If you want the lamentable situation of street thugery to change, try putting down your fist and picking up a pen. Do your part and advocate for social reform.

You may introduce reality in your training, but it does not seem like that reality is really sinking in for you. I am all for exploding into attack when the hammer falls, but silat/fma training shoud teach you to fear a weapon. I have been stabbed once and I had know idea that a knife was present, I just heard the pop in my side as we were rolling around on the ground. Respect for the danger of a street confrontation is tantamount, and it will incite you to act without remorse when the time is right.

 

[Han-Mi]

the first and last time I literally walked away from a fight I got punched in the back of my head. Moral of the story, smack em down if you believe they intend you harm and there is no other alternative. But if you see a way out, take it. Less law suits that way

 

[BruceCalkins]

Judging from the posts around here this thread isnt going to make me many friends but I just cant understand the walk away at any cost mentality.
Are we martial artists or not.

I may be wrong on the person...But I think.. Master Gichin Funakoshi (1868 - 1957) Once said.. " The Greatest Victory in Battle Is Not to Have the Battle."

Your mind is your strongest Martial Arts Weapon. Use it corectly and you will win every battle by just walking away.
One of my instructors once told me. "Un like a tournament, A Fight should be like the game of Golf. The One with the lowest score wins." (This doesn't mean to let the other guy score...) Just don't get hit, and use your mind to walk out.

 

[Adept]

Life is a risk, do you drive a car?, do you cross a street?

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Since risk is an inherent part of life, we should abandon risk minimisation techniques? Sure, life is risky. And yes, I drive a car and I cross the street. However, taking acceptable risks, and taking all possible measures to minimise any risk, does not mean we should take unreasonable risks without due care to protect ourselves.

Because we drive cars in every day life does not mean that driving an unsafe vehicle, while intoxicated, on icy roads is a good idea.

Because we cross the street regularly does not mean it is a good idea to do so while blindfolded during rush hour.

Do you really think a crack head is going to sue you?

Would you like to find out? I wouldn't. I also wouldn't like to find out if he has six buddies in the shadows, or if I can contract HIV from his blood, or if I might slip and fall and get myself killed. If I have to, I will defend myself in whatever way I see fit. But I'm going to do everything I can to go home safe before I have to do that.