Various religions denounce Koran burning. No one showed.

[Sukerkin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11256182

"On Thursday, Mr Jones told reporters he had spent days waiting for a sign from God to cancel the protest, and that the sign had come in the form of a deal with a local imam to relocate a controversial Islamic cultural centre due to be built near Ground Zero in New York."

{Bold mine as that is really the core of this whole problem, IMNSHO}.

Oh and if this guy is a genuine Doctor as it says on the door of his shed ...

 

[Empty Hands]

Another great point

If by "great" you mean "wrong", then yes. Although Chris Muir is opaque at even the best of times, so perhaps he was making a completely different point.

 

[Sukerkin]

I see from the news that even without the act itself being carried out the response from the volatile young prophet-bothering faith is pretty much as might have been expected.

The thought occurs to me whether they realise that the actions they take, far from enhancing the credability of their religion, undermines the view (held by some of us) that, behind all the hoo-haa, there are reasonable people?

 

[Marginal]

Why the **** should someone overseas CARE if some hick pastor in the US is burning a Koran?

The same reason the word "time table" somehow kills troops.

 

[elder999]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11256182

"On Thursday, Mr Jones told reporters he had spent days waiting for a sign from God to cancel the protest, and that the sign had come in the form of a deal with a local imam to relocate a controversial Islamic cultural centre due to be built near Ground Zero in New York."

{Bold mine as that is really the core of this whole problem, IMNSHO}.

Oh and if this guy is a genuine Doctor as it says on the door of his shed ...

Sign from God=Visit from the IRS

 

[MA-Caver]

The repercussions have already started... as with this photo of angry Afghans shouting Anti-U.S. slogans and burning tires...

way to go butt head!

Afghans shout anti-U.S. slogans as they burn tires and block a highway during a protest in reaction to a small American church's plan to burn copies of the Quran, at Jalalabad, east of Kabul, Afghanistan, Friday, Sept. 10, 2010. Religious and political leaders across the Muslim world welcomed a decision by the church to suspend its plans to torch copies of their holy book but some said Friday the damage has already been done. (AP Photo/Rahmat Gul)
http://denverpost.slideshowpro.com/...35.sJPG_950_2000_0_75_0_50_50.sJPG?1284176585

 

[Monadnock]

Wow. This is quite a thread. There are a lot of good points and a fair amount of fluff as well.

We need to remember to not fall for the imagery being put on TV in the "news." They thrive on putting the extreme in front of us in order to sell more advertising. It's a freak show.

Moving on...

This arguement is never going to end. I watching the Zohan movie with Adam Sandler last night, and I got a laugh when his mother said, "We've been fighting for 2000 years, it must be ending pretty soon." *sighhhhhh*

My own thoughts have changed over the years. I'm middle aged now, and do not have the hard-line attitude "my way or the highway" and the "I know everything" attitude. I've discovered life's journey and realize my views will probably change again.

Discussions like these are helpful if they encourage a peaceful resolution. But lumping whole groups of people into a single term like "they" and "them" does not help anything.

I've been to Pakistan 3 times this year. I've seen Christians and Churches in places I never dreamed. No fighting. No trash-talking. There's more violence between Islamic sects than between different religions there.

The feeling I got there was "they" just want to live in peace the same way "we" do.

Try not to let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. And....keep seeking the truth, openly. The ignorance on TV will not help you.

 

[Ray]

What "civil liberties" are we discussing in THIS thread?

This kooks right to burn a Koran? he does have that right.

This is the other side of the Mosque debate. While I don't agree with the timing and placement of the Mosque. I defend the RIGHT of the guy to build it. While this nut is...well a nut...what are you suggesting should be done here??

I may have read the thread too quickly and too late; for me the whole of the issue is that Freedom of Speech is a vital fundamental right of the US. No one seems to have like the proposed burning of the Koran, neither do I. I don't like flag burning; I don't like burning political figures in effigy; I don't like burning bibles, book of mormons, bhagva-gita (sp), the tao te ching, On the Origin of Species, A Brief History of the History...but the right to speak popularly and unpopularly in word and deed was the heart of the debate.

We should fear the loss of a freedom more than the fear of an unpopular idea.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I may have read the thread too quickly and too late; for me the whole of the issue is that Freedom of Speech is a vital fundamental right of the US. No one seems to have like the proposed burning of the Koran, neither do I. I don't like flag burning; I don't like burning political figures in effigy; I don't like burning bibles, book of mormons, bhagva-gita (sp), the tao te ching, On the Origin of Species, A Brief History of the History...but the right to speak popularly and unpopularly in word and deed was the heart of the debate.

We should fear the loss of a freedom more than the fear of an unpopular idea.

Actually, ... this guy absolutely has the right to burn the Koran. And the other people have the right to tell him it is stupid, and they even have the right to tell him that he shouldn't do it. That's freedom

 

[Ray]

Actually, ... this guy absolutely has the right to burn the Koran. And the other people have the right to tell him it is stupid, and they even have the right to tell him that he shouldn't do it. That's freedom

I will agree with that in general. I would argue that Hillary Clinton, Barry Obama, and other politicians should not publicly comment on the rightness/wrongness of a citizen exercising a constitutional right when exercised in a legal manner.

 

[crushing]

For some perspective on this HUGE international news story, here is a "Chart of the Day" from http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/09/an-apology-from-marty-contd.html

 

[Ray]

For some perspective on this HUGE international news story, here is a "Chart of the Day" from http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/09/an-apology-from-marty-contd.html

Nice chart. Looks like big Green Apple and an Orange. I love comparing apples with oranges.

 

[yorkshirelad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11223457

We've said that if this church costs any of our troops their lives, we will come across and they will wish they'd never been born. It's not a threat, it's a promise.

Is this a tongue in cheek comment? If not, I suggest you use that you use that line on the Islamic FUNDAMENTALISTS (note I said fundamentalists) in your own country. Ah, but no. You're too afraid of offending those guys.

The only "coming across" that Brits will be doing, is for the annual two weeks in in Florida.

 

[yorkshirelad]

And who made the Saudi 'Royal Family' and who divided up the Middle East into sections putting people on thrones that didn't exist, making borders where there were none? The Allies did after the First World War, we reap what we sow.

Exactly! We reap what we sow. The same can be said for the Brits in the North of Ireland. Do we agree?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Ah but you have a comfortable life in America, I think that most of these arguments are academic for you, you haven't the experience most countries have in fascism, communism, dictators, wars, being bombed, (70th anniversdary of the Blitz this week), resistance etc. Easy for you to pass judgement on the rest of us when it's a academic for you.

Oh well would love to stay and chat but car and bags packed for time away in sunny Cornwall. Don't do all the controversial stuff while I'm away!

Academics... you elitist pissant! Tell this to the thousands of Vietnam vets who served honorably in the war and lived to tell the tale. Tell that to the WW2 vets who served in Europe and saved the **** of the British. Tell that to the brave souls who fought in Korea.

Many Americans have seen what fascism, communism, totalitarianism and every other God forsaken ism has done for the world at large and have risked their lives to preserve the freedoms we have here in the US and YOU have in what was once Great Britain.
You show understanding for Islamic cultures that stone women to death for adultery and cut the heads off of westerners simply for being westerners and yet you condemn a lone nut in Florida for burning copies of the Koran.

 

[Ray]

Is this a tongue in cheek comment? If not, I suggest you use that you use that line on the Islamic FUNDAMENTALISTS (note I said fundamentalists) in your own country. Ah, but no. You're too afraid of offending those guys.

The only "coming across" that Brits will be doing, is for the annual two weeks in in Florida.

Personally I'm not afraid of people being offended by a legal display of free speech...Personally I wouldn't burn a koran, bible, flag, or any figure in effigy. But I've been known to offend people intentionally and unintentionally and in some of the most uncomfortable places.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Ah but you have a comfortable life in America, I think that most of these arguments are academic for you, you haven't the experience most countries have in fascism, communism, dictators, wars, being bombed, (70th anniversdary of the Blitz this week), resistance etc. Easy for you to pass judgement on the rest of us when it's a academic for you.

I would suggest that you be very careful in telling others what their experiences in life have been. For certain, you have no idea other then what they tell you.

But, as a suggestion, I do find that when you can no longer legitimately debate someone, you turn to the ad hominem attack, ie., you couldn't possibly know because of "X".

Also, there is nothing wrong with an academic understanding of an issue. I would, also as a suggestion, maybe say that your opinion might be clouded because of your intimate and personal familiarity of these situations. Perhaps you can't look outside of your own emotional responses to various situations, which then cause you to tell others that they can't possibly understand.

Some might suggest that an outside view of certain issues can bring a broader perspective. After all, isn't that what science and academia is all about.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The same can be said for the Brits in the North of Ireland. Do we agree?

Actually, no. The majority of people in Northern Ireland at the time wanted to stay with the UK, they still do, though the numbers are down, mostly because of immigration and a higher RC birthrate.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I dare not speak for TEZ, but I believe she was referring specifically to the destruction of European cities and resulting civilian deaths. While our infrastructure and civilians here in North America got off easy by comparison.

I’m not taking sides here, but I’m always amazed that 65 years after WW2 ended so many people bring up, to the Brits in an argument, that if it wasn’t for us you’d be speaking German. I have never doubt US commitment to the west and the world for that matter, some of it was selfish, some was by necessity and some was selfless, but many, many other countries were involved in the wars of the 20th century against the various forms of totalitarianism.

Look at the deaths as a percentage of population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Many countries suffered more then the US, or the UK, that by no mean diminishes any of their dead, to me the death of one soldier is a great number and should be honoured, regardless of their country of origin.

The US and the UK, add in Canada and a dozen other countries have all been allies for a very long time, I have no doubt that when the next big war hits, and if history has taught us anything, it will, we will stand together again and bleed together again.

Get over it all folks.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I dare not speak for TEZ, but I believe she was referring specifically to the destruction of European cities and resulting civilian deaths. While our infrastructure and civilians here in North America got off easy by comparison.

I’m not taking sides here, but I’m always amazed that 65 years after WW2 ended so many people bring up, to the Brits in an argument, that if it wasn’t for us you’d be speaking German. I have never doubt US commitment to the west and the world for that matter, some of it was selfish, some was by necessity and some was selfless, but many, many other countries were involved in the wars of the 20th century against the various forms of totalitarianism.

Look at the deaths as a percentage of population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Many countries suffered more then the US, or the UK, that by no mean diminishes any of their dead, to me the death of one soldier is a great number and should be honoured, regardless of their country of origin.

The US and the UK, add in Canada and a dozen other countries have all been allies for a very long time, I have no doubt that when the next big war hits, and if history has taught us anything, it will, we will stand together again and bleed together again.

Get over it all folks.

With all due respect for your position, Tez often says that Americans don't understand. Europeans did suffer more civilian casualties during WW2 then we did, fair enough. But her position is (and often is) that Americans can't know anything about oppression, dictatorship, facism, or any number of other things due to being American.

In that, she is just plain wrong. No one is diminishing the death of Europeans, however, as York pointed out, death in war against facism, oppression, and dictatorship is by no means foreign to us.