The Council for American Islamic Relations and Terrorism

[Brian King]

"The problem is that you live in a democracy that says free speech is a right and unfortunately that mean people being able to say things that are hateful to others.”

I give thanks to God many times daily for my living where and when I do. Mean and ignorant people can say what they want and I have done much to guarantee that right continues. At the same time I reserve the right to call BS on them and their ideas. I mentioned earlier the speech that I stopped at to listen to. I did not try to shut them down or shout them down I left instead, I have also been to events to listen to views where others did try to shout down the speakers, ironically the shouters were college kids organized by groups such as the one in the OP. Free speech is not only a right but it is also a responsibility. People have a right to be hateful and mean and also ignorant and stupid just as other people have the right to reveal that ignorance and meanness and the responsibility of good citizenship to do so while still respecting the others right to voice their opinions.

“This organisation is basically allowed to say what it wants but and it's a big but if it then starts taking actions which are against the law then you can close then down.”

I am a private citizen so I can not close them or others down. I can stay informed. I can also observe and report. But even more important I can discuss their ideas and my ideas and show the differences between them.

“I think you may have got the wrong idea about CCTV in the UK. It's certainly not on every street corner, it's mostly confined to cities and then places where occurrances are likely. CCTV is also used as it is in the States in shops, banks and on some motorways.”

Likely I do. I have never been to England and have no plans of going anytime soon. I have seen the CCTV of your subway bombers and I have seen the CCTV of street and traffic cameras and have read about the great number of high tech cameras over there. We have CCTV here as well, but not near so many or technically advanced. A few traffic cameras at the chock points in traffic which are mostly unmanned and used for news traffic reports, A few at public buildings such as court houses and airports and a very few in high crime areas. I do not think it is a privacy issue but a financial issue and political will, as I am sure that many in our government would like many more cameras. Most of the CCTV in shops, banks and the like are privately owned and the government has no mandatory access with out a court order and those are very difficult to get. Is the CCTV footage over there mainly controlled by the government or by private persons?

“Internet discussions rarely produce reasonable and constructive arguments”

LOL that is true and with the usual understatement the British are known for LOL I can whole heartedly agree yet, that is no reason to at least try, wouldn’t you agree?

“The British soldier has a huge propensity to fight, anyone, anywhere, they're not that fussed who, though a favourite is the Royal Military Police but then we all like a pop at them lol!”

I have noticed this propensity among the British and not just her soldiers. And God bless them and it. That is what makes a good enemy become a good friend. The honesty to stand up and say bring it. To be willing to fight at the drop of a hat and to be willing to drop that hat at any moment is a strength. One both our countries peoples are lucky to have in abundance. It has changed the world I believe for the better and is needed as much today as any other time in our histories.

Thanks for the English lessons. Words and their meaning fascinate me.

I do not think and certainly can not speak for Mr. E that his reasons for posting the topic are malicious but rather he felt the need to try to educate on what for some is an emotional topic. I do not hear the yell to shut them down but to rather notice what they are saying and doing and give appropriate weight to their views and actions. The kind of attention and honest debate all to rare in today’s Politically Correct world.

Brian King

 

[Mr. E]

I do not think and certainly can not speak for Mr. E that his reasons for posting the topic are malicious but rather he felt the need to try to educate on what for some is an emotional topic. I do not hear the yell to shut them down but to rather notice what they are saying and doing and give appropriate weight to their views and actions. The kind of attention and honest debate all to rare in today’s Politically Correct world.

Thank you Mr King. You are very correct in what you say.

It is a sad fact that many people will not think things through today. If there is something that makes is sound like the person is an expert, or stands for something, then people tend to accept it without checking the facts about the matter or those saying it. As martial artists on this board we are probably all aware of how a few people getting together and giving themselves some title like "World Combat- Experienced Mystical Shaolin Monks and Soke Association" will help them to attract people because not one in a hundred people seem to check on what that type of group that really is. It sounds like a legit group, so they just accept it.

CAIR is the same. It pretends to be working for the protection of Muslim rights and helping them live in America, but their purpose seems to be to avoid anything that would help Islam move away from the fringe that has done so much harm in its name.

When people hear that CAIR opposes the St Petersburg Declaration and accuses those supporting it of having anti-muslim agendas, some would probably listen to only that. Certainly CAIR does not seem to be willing to deal with any of the points raised in the declaration. They merely try to portray themselves as a group opposed to Islamaphobia and those that oppose them like the Muslims that signed the declaration as being opposed to Islam.

If I do nothing else, I would like people to question things the next time they hear something like that from CAIR and research things for themselves before coming up with an opinion and acting. I want both sides to be listened to and all the facts to come out rather than shouting down one side as being biggoted. Thank you for noticing.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Its amusing how people pointing out organizations like CAIR get labled as racist/bigot etc. But the organization in question gets a pass. When did we become such a country or whimps that we cant stand for anythng or state our dislike for an organization like this without being labled? PC at its worst.

 

[Mark L]

Its amusing how people pointing out organizations like CAIR get labled as racist/bigot etc. But the organization in question gets a pass. When did we become such a country or whimps that we cant stand for anythng or state our dislike for an organization like this without being labled? PC at its worst.

We're not all wimps, but some just don't have the desire or patience to fight through the name calling and mis-characterizations until the issue can be viewed in the light of day. Pick your topic: gay marriage, illegal immigration, islamic fundamentalism, global warming, media bias, etc. It's difficult to raise a contentious, contemporary issue that doesn't quickly degenerate into a bunch of BS that obscures meaningful discussion. Some days I feel like a good scrap, others I just like to watch.

FWIW, I think CAIR is a very dangerous organization. And I don't understand why a large portion of Muslims are allowing these and other radical factions to hijack their religion. It makes me wonder where they really stand. If that causes some to classify me as a bigot, go ahead.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know the demographics of America so can anyone say how many Muslims there are or what the percentage of the country is Muslim?

 

[Mr. E]

I don't know the demographics of America so can anyone say how many Muslims there are or what the percentage of the country is Muslim?

Take a look at this article to see the problems.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/76

By law, the American census can't ask what religion someone is.

Best guess, about 2,000,000 out of about 295,734,134 (July 2005 est.) The figures go from about one- fourth of that to four times that.

 

[michaeledward]

I don't know the demographics of America so can anyone say how many Muslims there are or what the percentage of the country is Muslim?

Worldwide, the estimates are that there are 1.2 Billion followers of Islam. The numbers I have seen for the United States is six to seven million Muslims. The population of the United States is approximately 300,000,000. If the 6 million is correct, that is 2%.

As for the referenced Daniel Pipes. He should not be considered a credible source for information on Islam. He is a vitriolic Zionist. I believe he is on record as stating the the only way for Israel to secure itself, is to eliminate Islam. In October of 2001, he is quoted with "The increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews."

 

[Mr. E]

As for the referenced Daniel Pipes. He should not be considered a credible source for information on Islam. He is a vitriolic Zionist. I believe he is on record as stating the the only way for Israel to secure itself, is to eliminate Islam. In October of 2001, he is quoted with "The increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews."

I just have a natural aversion to trying to shout down opposing viewpoints by labling them racist, bigoted, islamaphobic or anything like that.

Daniel Pipes does give sources for the various figures he gives. I think it would be a much better course to do a google search of all of them and make a judgement for yourself rather than give a figure and try to discredit any other viewpoint without further research or debate.

Here is another source that gives some figures and relates the same problems that Pipes does.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/immigrat.htm

Perhaps it would be best to do a google search on the matter, read several sources and try to come up with an estimate of your own.

 

[Mr. E]

As for the referenced Daniel Pipes. He should not be considered a credible source for information on Islam. He is a vitriolic Zionist. I believe he is on record as stating the the only way for Israel to secure itself, is to eliminate Islam. In October of 2001, he is quoted with "The increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews."

I was suspicious about the part that had been left out of the quote. When you see three periods in a row in a sentence, it does not mean that the person paused while speaking. It means that something was cut out. I found the original quote posted here.

Link to an article with the full quote.

Here is the original, unaltered quote.

"I worry very much, from the Jewish point of view, that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims, because they are so much led by an Islamist leadership, that this will present true dangers to American Jews."

Note the part that had been cut out makes it clear that he is not afraid of Muslims because they are Muslim, but because fringe elements seem to be the most active and influential among them.

And you can see the reason why groups such as CAIR always cut this portion out of the quote and try to give the rest of it as much play as possible. To me, it is pretty clear that they are trying to misrepresent Mr Pipes and divert attention away from the fact that it is they and not the typical muslim just trying to live his life that is the concern.

This kind of goes back to what Mark L wrote about when he posted,

FWIW, I think CAIR is a very dangerous organization. And I don't understand why a large portion of Muslims are allowing these and other radical factions to hijack their religion. It makes me wonder where they really stand. If that causes some to classify me as a bigot, go ahead.

And I think others, if they consider it, would also be concerned that when groups such as CAIR seem to call the shots for the Muslim community that there might be reason to be concerned. Muslim- affiliated groups such as the ones that put out the St Petersburg Declaration are trying to give rise to a more tolerant, peaceful version of Islam. But groups such as CAIR seek to wipe them out so as to keep their version of Islam the one that is most active and influential.

But it seems that CAIR has found that calling anyone who exposes them an islamaphobe a very effective tactic. They seem to use it quite often instead of dealing with the facts people bring up. I do not think they would keep using the same tactic for every last critic of theirs unless they found it worked.

 

[Mr. E]

Here is a recent example of CAIR in the news.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-26-texastrial_N.htm?csp=34

Some interesting quotes.

The committee oversaw a number of past and current Muslim organizations in the United States.

One was Holy Land, which was shut down in December 2001 and accused of being a fundraising front for Hamas. Five of its former leaders are on trial in Dallas, charged with sending more than $12 million in illegal aid to Hamas.

Another was the Islamic Association for Palestine, which closed in 2004 after a federal judge found it and then-defunct Holy Land liable in the killing of an American teenager in Israel by Hamas gunmen.

And a third was the Council on American-Islamic Relations, or CAIR, which has emerged as a leading advocacy group for American Muslims.

For the first time, evidence in the case put CAIR's founder, Nihad Awad, at a Philadelphia meeting of alleged Hamas supporters that was secretly watched and recorded by the FBI.

The writer of the memo, Mohamed Akram, wrote that members of the brotherhood "must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within."

And of course, the standard CAIR defense when evidence of its intentions and actions are brought to light.

"That's one of those urban legends about CAIR," he said. "It's fed by the right-wing, pro-Israeli blogosphere."

This story is about charities that took money and funnelled it to terrorists working against the west. I think people should read this article and take a closer look at the charities they may be giving to through programs at work.

 

[Tez3]

Quote:
The committee oversaw a number of past and current Muslim organizations in the United States.

One was Holy Land, which was shut down in December 2001 and accused of being a fundraising front for Hamas. Five of its former leaders are on trial in Dallas, charged with sending more than $12 million in illegal aid to Hamas.

Another was the Islamic Association for Palestine, which closed in 2004 after a federal judge found it and then-defunct Holy Land liable in the killing of an American teenager in Israel by Hamas gunmen.

And a third was the Council on American-Islamic Relations, or CAIR, which has emerged as a leading advocacy group for American Muslims.

For the first time, evidence in the case put CAIR's founder, Nihad Awad, at a Philadelphia meeting of alleged Hamas supporters that was secretly watched and recorded by the FBI.

As I said, someone will be watching and investigating them.


This story is about charities that took money and funnelled it to terrorists working against the west. I think people should read this article and take a closer look at the charities they may be giving to through programs at work.


This is true of many organisations not just Muslims ones, we had been asking for many years that people look at money that they thought was for charities in N Ireland but were actually buying arms, bomb making equipment

 

[Mr. E]

As I said, someone will be watching and investigating them.

For criminal actions, then it is good that the police look into things like this.

But CAIR also works as a former of public opinion. And as such, should be watched by those who form opinions.

 

[Tez3]

For criminal actions, then it is good that the police look into things like this.

But CAIR also works as a former of public opinion. And as such, should be watched by those who form opinions.

Lets me out then!

Seriously, I will make up my own mind without being harangued by either side. Many organisations lobby public and parliamentary opinions. The multinational companies pay a lot of money trying to influence people through advertising agencies,they also pay lobbyists money to influence government ministers. The world is full of people trying to influence others opinions, this can be called advertising or it can be called propaganda.
Mr E I understand that you feel strongly about this organisation and you have brought it to our notice, now I think you are in danger of patronising us. I'm sure everyone who read it understood their agenda and have made their minds up already and in fact i suspect most agree with you that this organisation needs watching but you do not need to keep telling us this as if we were children. The effect it's having on me is that I feel inclined to argue against you. Others have made interesting and readable posts which proves they understand the point you are trying to make. I'm not on anyone's side, I'm not calling anyone a racist, I just want to say you are labouring the point as far as I'm concerned. Were you this vocal against Sinn Fein when it did exactly the same as CAIR in America?

 

[Mr. E]

Seriously, I will make up my own mind without being harangued by either side.

Really, I am a bit shaken by the attitude you show.

I always try to get as much information from both sides of an issue before I form an opinion. You are the second person who has basically said that you would not listen to one side or the other before you form yours. Honestly, I can't understand why you would have that sort of attitude. It is just something outside my experience.

And I am really taken back by the way you post in a thread discussing things your don't want to read or talk about. This just seems strange to me.

There are other threads here that have gone on for a long time. I see no reason to stop them, or attempt to stop me from posting. I do not see you complaining about them. I only see you comlaining about global warming and such in a thread meant to discuss and inform about CAIR. I posted new news, new information for people to be better informed about the matter.

I can understand if you don't want to hear anymore, but why bother reading this thread at all, much less post, if you are turned off by it? Can't you just let others post what they want within the rules? To be honest, it sounds like you are trying to say what can and can't be posted here.

 

[Tez3]

Really, I am a bit shaken by the attitude you show.

I always try to get as much information from both sides of an issue before I form an opinion. You are the second person who has basically said that you would not listen to one side or the other before you form yours. Honestly, I can't understand why you would have that sort of attitude. It is just something outside my experience.

And I am really taken back by the way you post in a thread discussing things your don't want to read or talk about. This just seems strange to me.

There are other threads here that have gone on for a long time. I see no reason to stop them, or attempt to stop me from posting. I do not see you complaining about them. I only see you comlaining about global warming and such in a thread meant to discuss and inform about CAIR. I posted new news, new information for people to be better informed about the matter.

I can understand if you don't want to hear anymore, but why bother reading this thread at all, much less post, if you are turned off by it? Can't you just let others post what they want within the rules? To be honest, it sounds like you are trying to say what can and can't be posted here.

You have mistaken me, I haven't said I won't listen to both sides before forming an opinion, what I'm saying is that you are the only one who is labouring the point and giving us your same opinion constantly! I'm saying I have read and understand your point of view, you don't need to keep telling me! Other threads have gone on yes but there has been discussion on many levels and many points. I haven't complained about global warming, I made a point as I have others about terrorism which you have chosen to ignore. I also said I will make my mind up myself, I will listen to both sides but I will not be harangued by anyone.

I am not trying to dictate what you can and can't say on this thread, far from it. I'm saying that every post you post up says the same thing, Cair is bad, Cair must be watched. Yes, we understood that on the first post, many people agree with you.

The first thing I wanted to do when I posted on this thread was to turn it away from being an argument about racism, the second was to restart it as a proper discussion. I feel Mr E that you don't read my posts as you've misunderstood just about everything I have written. A discussion is not one where one side just repeats his point of view as if he were talking to children. Far from trying to stop discussion I'm trying to invite more comments so that it does turn into a discusssion. Other posters see this, I've had very good discussions with them. We don't have to agree to be able to discuss or debate things but we have to have something more to go on than CAIR is bad all the time. You seem to be upset more that I am saying I will make my decisions on the criteria I chose rather than by your criteria.

 

[Mr. E]

If you do not like what I write, but I am not disrupting anything, then feel free to skip reading this thread.

If you want to post in this thead, how about something related to the subject? What do you feel about the St Petersburg Declaration and CAIR's response to it?

Honestly, it looks more and more like Brian was correct.

 

[Tez3]

If you do not like what I write, but I am not disrupting anything, then feel free to skip reading this thread.

Honestly, it looks more and more like Brian was correct.

Really, you think?

I've not said I didn't like what you wrote, I've said you don't need to keep reposting it. You posted that this organisaton needed watching, people agreed with you, I said that there will be people watching which was subsequently proved true. You still keep saying they need watching and you miss the points I'm trying to make. Nor have you answered my question on whether you were this vocal when Sinn Fein were doing in America exactly what CAIR is doing now.

I'm trying to make serious points and make this discussion worthwhile but all I'm getting from you is that I want to shut you up, far from it. I want you to expand on your posts. I mentioned global warming to get a point across and to get a discussion going in a different way that it was heading.... into being closed if you look back. It wasn't a moan, it was point for debating, is the threat of global warming a bigger one than Al Queada terrorism or is that the bigger problem? should we worry about CAIR or should we worry about things closer to home? You see the way I'm going?

I understand that when you feel very strongly about something it's hard to have someone who doesn't see it as such a problem you do. You cannot make people think the way you do, CAIR is entitled, as I was pointing out to try to influence peoples opinions as is McDonalds, Microsoft and governments etc. You are doing exactly the same in trying to influence peoples opinions against them, that's fair, it's democracy. What's not fair is misreading my posts and putting into them things I never meant or said.

 

[Mr. E]

It wasn't a moan, it was point for debating, is the threat of global warming a bigger one than Al Queada terrorism or is that the bigger problem? should we worry about CAIR or should we worry about things closer to home? You see the way I'm going?

How about starting a thread, or joining one in progress, about global warming?

Really, after Michealward disrupted things by accusing me of being racist, you stepped in to talk about just about anything other than CAIR.

Why are some people so scared to talk about these types of things? Why do they attempt to shut up reasoned, informative discussion about threats they may not have been aware of? Why is a martialtalk mentor doing her best to see that no discussion goes on about an organization she won't even read the links about?

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Moderator-

 

[Tez3]

How about starting a thread, or joining one in progress, about global warming?

Really, after Michealward disrupted things by accusing me of being racist, you stepped in to talk about just about anything other than CAIR.

Why are some people so scared to talk about these types of things? Why do they attempt to shut up reasoned, informative discussion about threats they may not have been aware of? Why is a martialtalk mentor doing her best to see that no discussion goes on about an organization she won't even read the links about?

I do not want a discussion about global warming,I am not trying to stop you discussing Cair. I'm asking for a discussion about it not to be told just that they need watching.

I don't need to read your links, I know far more about the organisation than you do as my job is as an anti terrorist officer in the Ministry of Defence and I have access to a lot of information and intelligence which I looked up when this thread was started. I even contacted an acquaintance on the American end of things. No, you weren't to know that but you wouldn't accept my opinion as being a valid one.

No one is trying to shut you up, quite the opposite I have been trying to draw you into a conversation regarding this issue. Ok have it your way, I tried.
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