United Martial Artists for Christ

[Flying Crane]

I used to be bothered by this. But now I take a different view. If you knew someone was going through an addiction, you'd wish for them to get help, even if they weren't yet ready for help. This is the way many Christians view those of us who are not of their faith. They see us in peril, and want us not to be, so they pray. It does us no harm, and is well-intended. I'd be (and have been) irritated if they feel the need to tell me to "repent - you are going to Hell!" But if they want to quietly pray for me, I don't really care. I'd prefer they not tell me - there's some different motivation going on when they feel the need to tell me.

Yup, and honestly it's an F-ed up arrogant view. To decide that I need saving by their god, that my life decisions are putting my very soul in jeopardy, is honestly a disgusting position for someone to take.

Now if someone chooses to pray for someone else who is struggling with issues in life, and they share the same or similar fundamental religious beliefs, well that's fine. The shared belief system can create common ground for it.

But to pray for someone's soul particularly BECAUSE of that persons religious beliefs, or lack thereof, is unacceptable BS pure and simple. I'll turn around and make a blood sacrifice of a colony of bats to the dark god Ral or whomever else I might think up, to return the favor. This can be a two-way street.

I don't spend any time at all dwelling on this. If anyone is praying for me, I am not specifically aware of it, tho I suspect certain family members may be doing so. But if I'm not aware of it, then it's not an issue. But as a point of discussion, this is absolutely how I feel about it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yup, and honestly it's an F-ed up arrogant view. To decide that I need saving by their god, that my life decisions are putting my very soul in jeopardy, is honestly a disgusting position for someone to take.

Now if someone chooses to pray for someone else who is struggling with issues in life, and they share the same or similar fundamental religious beliefs, well that's fine. The shared belief system can create common ground for it.

But to pray for someone's soul particularly BECAUSE of that persons religious beliefs, or lack thereof, is unacceptable BS pure and simple. I'll turn around and make a blood sacrifice of a colony of bats to the dark god Ral or whomever else I might think up, to return the favor. This can be a two-way street.

I don't spend any time at all dwelling on this. If anyone is praying for me, I am not specifically aware of it, tho I suspect certain family members may be doing so. But if I'm not aware of it, then it's not an issue. But as a point of discussion, this is absolutely how I feel about it.

From their point of view, they are trying to help. How is that arrogant? You and I may feel it is misplaced, and our view of the religion (or religion in general, in my case) may be different, but a person who wants to help is being nice, even if what they do doesn't really help. A comparison (and please, nobody think I'm calling Christians "children" - it's just an easy analogy) would be if a child tries to help you dig a hole. You don't really need their help, and what they do is unlikely to actually be helpful, but it's sweet, anyway.

 

[Flying Crane]

From their point of view, they are trying to help. How is that arrogant? You and I may feel it is misplaced, and our view of the religion (or religion in general, in my case) may be different, but a person who wants to help is being nice, even if what they do doesn't really help. A comparison (and please, nobody think I'm calling Christians "children" - it's just an easy analogy) would be if a child tries to help you dig a hole. You don't really need their help, and what they do is unlikely to actually be helpful, but it's sweet, anyway.

It is arrogant because by making this decision, they have passed judgement over me and the decisions that I have made for myself. They have decided that I am not to be trusted to make decisions for myself, and that they have a monopoly on correct religious beliefs, so much so that they need to pray for the saving of those who hold other beliefs.

If that isn't arrogant, then I can imagine a better example.

You are right in that there is no direct harm there, the prayers have no effect one way or the other and does not hurt me in a direct way. But it does encourage such arrogant thought and that can become harmful on a societal level. The difference between this and ISIS is only a matter of degree in action taken. At its heart, it is the same.

 

[Steve]

I don't think its a big deal. We all get judgy from time to time.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think its a big deal. We all get judgy from time to time.

Sure we do. But invoking one's deity becomes dangerous.

 

[Steve]

Sure we do. But invoking one's deity becomes dangerous.

I hear you. You should have seen my 8th grade teacher, Mr. Linamen. I was at the Lutheran school and he found out I had never been baptized. We did devotions every morning in class, and on wednesdays we would actually head up to the church. Not only did he pray for me, but the entire school prayed for me that next Wednesday. I was embarrassed at the time, but I Think they were sincere, and so it was okay.

That's the key for me. If you're "praying for me" because you think you're better and are looking for a way to be a jerk, screw you. But if you're sincerely trying to look out for me, even if I don't really think it's needed, hey, thanks. I appreciate it. If it makes you feel better, it makes me feel better, too. Why the heck not?

Related to this thread, if you think you need to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate, fine. But that's not a universally held belief. There's room for other opinions.

 

[Flying Crane]

I hear you. You should have seen my 8th grade teacher, Mr. Linamen. I was at the Lutheran school and he found out I had never been baptized. We did devotions every morning in class, and on wednesdays we would actually head up to the church. Not only did he pray for me, but the entire school prayed for me that next Wednesday. I was embarrassed at the time, but I Think they were sincere, and so it was okay.

That's the key for me. If you're "praying for me" because you think you're better and are looking for a way to be a jerk, screw you. But if you're sincerely trying to look out for me, even if I don't really think it's needed, hey, thanks. I appreciate it. If it makes you feel better, it makes me feel better, too. Why the heck not?

Related to this thread, if you think you need to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate, fine. But that's not a universally held belief. There's room for other opinions.

Sure, but it becomes blurred. Where lies the line between good intention and becoming a jerk, even if not intended, or not realized, that one has become a jerk? Yes, there is room for different opinions. When one prays for someone, especially if the motivation is a difference in religion, then that room for different opinions is being taken away. Even if the subject of the prayer isn't aware of it. The one doing the praying has established a dangerous (and downright wrong) precendent in their own mind. That righteous, "we are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG" mentality that can lead to widespread violence

Religious extremists believe they are doing the right thing, doing god's work, when they kill non-believers.

Now I realize I am taking this to the nth degree but we do have an extreme example very much alive and well in ISIS, of where we his can lead.

But coming back to a personal level, I just find the notion very offensive, that someone, even if it is my own mother, thinks that my decisions in life are so poor that I need someone to step in on my behalf and ask some god to save me.

 

[drop bear]

From their point of view, they are trying to help. How is that arrogant? You and I may feel it is misplaced, and our view of the religion (or religion in general, in my case) may be different, but a person who wants to help is being nice, even if what they do doesn't really help. A comparison (and please, nobody think I'm calling Christians "children" - it's just an easy analogy) would be if a child tries to help you dig a hole. You don't really need their help, and what they do is unlikely to actually be helpful, but it's sweet, anyway.

Ok. So say someone believes in an imaginary god. I am helping them by getting them to see that?

Or just being a duche.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure, but it becomes blurred. Where lies the line between good intention and becoming a jerk, even if not intended, or not realized, that one has become a jerk? Yes, there is room for different opinions. When one prays for someone, especially if the motivation is a difference in religion, then that room for different opinions is being taken away. Even if the subject of the prayer isn't aware of it. The one doing the praying has established a dangerous (and downright wrong) precendent in their own mind. That righteous, "we are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG" mentality that can lead to widespread violence

Religious extremists believe they are doing the right thing, doing god's work, when they kill non-believers.

Now I realize I am taking this to the nth degree but we do have an extreme example very much alive and well in ISIS, of where we his can lead.

But coming back to a personal level, I just find the notion very offensive, that someone, even if it is my own mother, thinks that my decisions in life are so poor that I need someone to step in on my behalf and ask some god to save me.

There's a world of difference between wishing someone well, silently and privately (even if that includes prayer or other religious observance), and forcing your views upon them because they are wrong. Those are not close to the same thing. Yes, there's a relationship (in both cases, they believe the other person is on the wrong path), but they are vastly different attitudes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. So say someone believes in an imaginary god. I am helping them by getting them to see that?

Or just being a duche.

If you're trying to change their mind, then you're not doing something without bothering them. Very different from what I described.

 

[drop bear]

If you're trying to change their mind, then you're not doing something without bothering them. Very different from what I described.

Exept in your analogy. Which would be a case of, child get out of my hole.

Ok would this be seen as helpfull to a christian if a satanist prayed to the devil that the Christian should abandon christ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exept in your analogy. Which would be a case of, child get out of my hole.

Ok would this be seen as helpfull to a christian if a satanist prayed to the devil that the Christian should abandon christ?

No, my analogy doesn't have the child trying to change how you dig your hole.

And whether the Christian sees that as _attempted_ helpfulness (remember, my assertion doesn't assume it's actually helpful, just the intent) depends upon whether the Christian is open-minded or not. For most of them, they probably wouldn't see it that way, but I don't need to be as closed-minded as they are.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's a world of difference between wishing someone well, silently and privately (even if that includes prayer or other religious observance), and forcing your views upon them because they are wrong. Those are not close to the same thing. Yes, there's a relationship (in both cases, they believe the other person is on the wrong path), but they are vastly different attitudes.

It is different, that is true. The degree of action is different. The roots are the same. This is where it begins. It's a jerky attitude.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is different, that is true. The degree of action is different. The roots are the same. This is where it begins.

It is also usually where it ends. The root assumption is the same (the person has made a wrong choice), but he attitude is wholly different ("I want well for you" vs. "I will make you do what I say").

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is also usually where it ends. The root assumption is the same (the person has made a wrong choice), but he attitude is wholly different ("I want well for you" vs. "I will make you do what I say").

 

[Steve]

Huh. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See also (at about 5:15):

 

[Xue Sheng]

See also (at about 5:15):

One holy city, 3 religions.... and then...the Crusades.....

In a philosophy of religion course in college, the Spanish Inquisition ws explained like this

Inquisitor: I fear for your soul and I truly love you, please convert

The Unclean: That is nice and thank you for caring, but I’m doing fine

Inquisitor: No, you don’t understand, I truly care about you and I worry about your soul…you must convert

The Unclean: No, really, I’m good. I appreciate the concern, but I’ll be fine

Inquisitor: Well then, to prove how much I care about you and your soul I will now have to torcher you until you convert to save you from yourself

 

[Flying Crane]

It is also usually where it ends. The root assumption is the same (the person has made a wrong choice), but he attitude is wholly different ("I want well for you" vs. "I will make you do what I say").

Usually, yes. But it is a root attitude that can become dangerous.

And let me just be clear, my position here is really in response to the comment about praying for someone to be saved becaus that person has different religious beliefs. That is toxic.

If someone wants to pray for a sick person to get better, that's fine. It is useless, but it's harmless. And it is still kind of jerky if the recipient may not want it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Usually, yes. But it is a root attitude that can become dangerous.

And let me just be clear, my position here is really in response to the comment about praying for someone to be saved becaus that person has different religious beliefs. That is toxic.

If someone wants to pray for a sick person to get better, that's fine. It is useless, but it's harmless. And it is still kind of jerky if the recipient may not want it.

At a hospital I worked at there was an employee (housekeeper) who was also an aspiring minister....he decided he would help the patients by praying for them...he decided to start in ICU....he walked in and the nurses thought he was there to clean the rooms....well..... imagine waking up, in the Intensive Care Unit, with some person praying over you....scared the living daylights out of a rather sick patient and the nurses found out when the patient hit the call light asking for help......and of course was completely convinced that the doctors, and nurses, were hiding something from them as it applied to their condition..... otherwise why would there be a guy praying for them in their room.....our would be minister got in heaps of trouble over that.