Unbelievable

[SFC JeffJ]

Hey everybody,

Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.

While visiting an old acquaintances school, I think I heard one of the biggest pieces of ******** I've come across on a dojo floor.

The instructor (the guy I know) started showing a technique to use against someone grabbing both of your wrists. Maybe not a likely attack, but whatever. He then did some very complicated motions of his arms and body and uke ended up on the ground. The ****ed up part of this was the fact in order for the technique to work, uke had to keep a hold of his wrists throughout the entire thing. Just as I was about to point this out, one of his higher ranking students asked about it. The response of the instructor was absolutely priceless.

"Your opponent will be confused about this during a fight and hang on to you." :BSmeter:

I **** you not.

Needless to say, I don't think I'll be visiting again.
'Cept maybe to poach that student who had the sense to ask about it. %-}

Jeff

 

[Carol]

No ****, there he is!!! Welcome back sir :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

In Wing Chun we have something called "forward force ", that is developed by the practice of Chi Sau.

This forward force is always "on" , if in the middle of a counter arm grab technique , wrist , elbow break etc and the opponent decides to disengage the grab from either or both arms.

Then the arm that is released will automatically go back along the shortest path to the center line and strike the attacker.

This tends to take care of the "What if ?" scenarios like what happens if he lets go and starts punching.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

No ****, there he is!!! Welcome back sir :asian:

Sir?!?

WTF? I used to work for a living!

Good to see you Carol!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

In Wing Chun we have something called "forward force ", that is developed by the practice of Chi Sau.

This forward force is always "on" , if in the middle of a counter arm grab technique , wrist , elbow break etc and the opponent decides to disengage the grab from either or both arms.

Then the arm that is released will automatically go back along the shortest path to the center line and strike the attacker.

This tends to take care of the "What if ?" scenarios like what happens if he lets go and starts punching.

I'm familiar with the concept, and it's a good one. But the idea of a grappling technique that requires your opponent not to do the obvious thing and let go is not only ridiculous, but a massive disservice to students when you are claiming to teach a self defense oriented MA.

Jeff

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm familiar with the concept, and it's a good one. But the idea of a grappling technique that requires your opponent not to do the obvious thing and let go is not only ridiculous, but a massive disservice to students when you are claiming to teach a self defense oriented MA.

Jeff

I get what you are saying, but understand that there are times this would apply. I have been in situations durring Randori before where letting go SEEMED like it would be a detriment when in fact it probably would have saved my butt. *shrug* I wasn't there, so I didn't see it... I'm just saying that could go either way IMO. So, I feel teaching the "what if" on either end (he holds on, or he lets go) is important.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.

If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.

Thinking that holding on continually is not what you would do (from a common sense/logical point of view) kinda misses the point, as we are then dealing with automatic, and largely automonous physical reactions and responces, which removes the idea of conscious decision making itself.

That said, the reasons the instructor gave are, well, ridiculous. I'd suggest that they didn't really understand the reasons the technique is done themselves.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Welcome back!!!

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.

If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.

Thinking that holding on continually is not what you would do (from a common sense/logical point of view) kinda misses the point, as we are then dealing with automatic, and largely automonous physical reactions and responces, which removes the idea of conscious decision making itself.

That said, the reasons the instructor gave are, well, ridiculous. I'd suggest that they didn't really understand the reasons the technique is done themselves.

What he said ... though I can see where the instructor might have given a simple answer just to get on with the lesson? Could be he didn't know and was just sharing the technique as he learned it. :idunno:

And welcome back SFC JeffJ

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.

Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI.

My big problem is yes people are going to let go of you a lot of the times. For that, you need to train for flowing into another technique, not to have a person who you look up to as an authority on the subject tell you that they won't let go.

Hey Brian and Shesulsa!

Great to see you two!

Jeff

 

[chinto]

ahh welcome back Sargent.... good to see you back


I would call you Sir, but then i would provably end up doing how many pushups???

 

[terryl965]

Jeff nice to see you back, hopefully you have been doing great....

 

[Josh Oakley]

I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.

Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI.

My big problem is yes people are going to let go of you a lot of the times. For that, you need to train for flowing into another technique, not to have a person who you look up to as an authority on the subject tell you that they won't let go.

Hey Brian and Shesulsa!

Great to see you two!

Jeff

Agree totally. Sadly, there are a lot of BS assumptions that are relied upon when training. It's as ridiculous as "the common street thug is almost always going to throw a wide roundhouse or haymaker punch."

 

[Josh Oakley]

Or the oft-quoted "all fights go to the ground"

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Jeff,

I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.

Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI.

Uh, I'm not sure exactly how close you are, but to be completely frank, I think this is a big part of why the comment may have come from ignorance.

My big problem is yes people are going to let go of you a lot of the times. For that, you need to train for flowing into another technique, not to have a person who you look up to as an authority on the subject tell you that they won't let go.

Agreed in terms of techniques for when someone lets go, however that is far from always the case, and it's entirely possible (if not highly probable) that the technique was a perfectly valid one (at least in construction). Again, there are many, many scenarios and reasons that someone simply will keep hold, whether it is "common sense" to let go or not. That said, without having seen the technique in question, I can't say definately that this is the case here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey everybody,

Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.

While visiting an old acquaintances school, I think I heard one of the biggest pieces of ******** I've come across on a dojo floor.

The instructor (the guy I know) started showing a technique to use against someone grabbing both of your wrists. Maybe not a likely attack, but whatever. He then did some very complicated motions of his arms and body and uke ended up on the ground. The ****ed up part of this was the fact in order for the technique to work, uke had to keep a hold of his wrists throughout the entire thing. Just as I was about to point this out, one of his higher ranking students asked about it. The response of the instructor was absolutely priceless.

"Your opponent will be confused about this during a fight and hang on to you." :BSmeter:

I **** you not.

Needless to say, I don't think I'll be visiting again.
'Cept maybe to poach that student who had the sense to ask about it. %-}

Jeff

Well well well :ticked:….look whose back…so…..WHERE’S MY PIE RECIPIE!!!!!!...:tantrum: HMMMM :mst:
:uhohh: Oh wait…you gave that to me already…never mind :uhyeah:

Hey Jeff, Welcome back. :asian:

It never ceases to amaze me when things like this happen. I have messed up more than a few people because my automatic response when grabbed, from my taiji training is to relax and they all say the same thing…”You can’t relax or it won’t work” (Translation…it won’t work).

The best was a guy trying to sell a Self-Defense class for woman to a friend of mine who was an LEO. First he asked me to grab his wrist, because he knew I did MA, and the inevitable “You can’t relax or it won’t work” response came out. Next he told my friend (the LEO) to grab his wrist. He did and then I heard no you have to use your right hand…. To which my friend said…”But I’m left handed” With a later follow up of… “Good thing none of the bad guys are left handed huh”

 

[shesulsa]

Well ...

I think one of the main reasons people grab another by the wrist or low forearm is to ... control their hands. If someone is trying to keep your hands/arms still then their grip will tighten, arms stiffen.

It seems to me to have techniques against this possibility, along with techniques against the possibility of release and techniques against the possibility of re-grab is a smart way to train.

 

[Chris Parker]

Add to that the fact that a natural reaction to someone trying to break out of your grip is to tighten it... so releasing is far from expected in all cases.

 

[shesulsa]

Add to that the fact that a natural reaction to someone trying to break out of your grip is to tighten it... so releasing is far from expected in all cases.

I've really only ever known someone to let go during training (afraid of being hurt).

 

[Chris Parker]

Then, honestly, they're not acting realistically.

One of the things I've been trying to instill in my guys is the intention of the attacker in our sequences. And if the intention is to hold onto someone (to restrain, to threaten, to hold and strike, to hold so someone else can strike, to hold to stop them hitting you, to hold to stop them either accessing their weapon or yours), and the respondant/defender moves against that grab (to break out of it, or just try to fight back), then the natural, instictive responce is to tighten the grip in order to stop the defender getting away. Basically, the natural responce is opposite to the action of the opponent (for example, if someone starts pushing you, it's natural to push back, and moving back or pulling is not a natural, but a trained responce), so that should be your first guide in looking at a realistic responce from an attacker.