Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo

howardr said:
Maybe we're just talking cross-purposes, but I just can't understand what you're referring to here.

So, in Lone Kimono are you saying that you move before being pulled or jerked?! I just don't get it. How is that realistically possible? How can you be assured that you will be ready for that and capable of it any time, at a moments notice? You're not Remo Williams are you? :)

I mean, if you're that fast, why not just move before they've even touched you at all? Fact is, at least in the attacks that we practice, and it makes sense to me (and incidentally it's what the attacks have looked like when I've seen them applied on unwilling participants "in the real world"), a one hand lapel grab realistically applied includes a jerk simultaneous with the grab. In other words, I don't think someone will walk up to another, stop, gently place their hand upon the lapel, and then after some time has passed push or pull. I think what's more more likely is that someone will aggressively (and most likely surreptitiously; therefore, you may not be aware that it's happening until it's happening) move up to the person and aggressively grab while simultaneously jerking the person quite physically. Mutatis mutandis for the other techniques listed.
Click to expand...
I stand corrected. Move after jerked, got it.
Sean
 
PSYCOLOGY OF CONFRONTATION TRAINING EXERCISE

Attacker:

Walk up and reach aggressively in "Twin Kimono" or "Mace of Aggressive." Your actions should involve first a striking heel palm "push," as you make contact so you can unbalance, and intimidate as you grab. This initial contact should be violent enough to be categorized as two simultaneous strikes before grabbing. - followed by the jerk or pull in the opposite direction disorientating your "unaware" victim.


Defender:

Practice survivng the first part of the attack, and your initial response - with your eyes closed to simulate unawareness.
 
Touch'O'Death said:
I stand corrected. Move after jerked, got it.
Sean
Click to expand...
And, speaking of jerks, I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk.
 
Doc said:
PSYCOLOGY OF CONFRONTATION TRAINING EXERCISE
Defender:

Practice survivng the first part of the attack, and your initial response - with your eyes closed to simulate unawareness.
Click to expand...
I'd like to offer my testimony that this tool (surviving the attack with eyes closed) keeps you honest and is excellent for the hands on attacks, especially pushes. Prevents you from moving before impact.

(Obviously, it's not very suitable for the punch/kick techniques.) :)
 
For the record Parker himself often used the words "trick," "dance," "doodad, and "shtick" to describe some of the things he did as euphemisms for principles he did not yet fully understand or had not yet defined.
 
Doc said:
For the record Parker himself often used the words "trick," "dance," "doodad, and "shtick" to describe some of the things he did as euphemisms for principles he did not yet fully understand or had not yet defined.
Click to expand...
Yeah, after thinking about it a little more after I wrote that message, I wondered if I overreacted. Just that "trick," kind of rubs me the wrong way. It just seems demeaning. Perhaps it's just a silly hang-up.
 
howardr said:
Yeah, after thinking about it a little more after I wrote that message, I wondered if I overreacted. Just that "trick," kind of rubs me the wrong way. It just seems demeaning. Perhaps it's just a silly hang-up.
Click to expand...
You're just accustomed to things being meticulously defined and articulated by a brilliant teacher. :)
 
The whole POINT (I feel free to capitalize, consiidering) of Mace of Aggression is that you've been yanked forward, which is why you clumsily step on their knee and sloppily hammer-fist 'em in the head. I'm not even going to get into the weird jumble of the rest of that list.

What you should actually be paying attention to is the fact that for all the disagreements between myself and Mr. Chap'el, and for all the considerable size of the gap between what he knows and what I knows, there is a fundamental agreement on this issue.

it comes from good instruction.
 
rmcrobertson said:
The whole POINT (I feel free to capitalize, consiidering) of Mace of Aggression is that you've been yanked forward, which is why you clumsily step on their knee and sloppily hammer-fist 'em in the head. I'm not even going to get into the weird jumble of the rest of that list.

What you should actually be paying attention to is the fact that for all the disagreements between myself and Mr. Chap'el, and for all the considerable size of the gap between what he knows and what I knows, there is a fundamental agreement on this issue.

it comes from good instruction.
Click to expand...
I've been taugh both ways, I just have an opinion on the issue with out refering every one to this or that manual my instructor puts out. If my opinions come out of bad instruction then so be it. One Day I'll Make a pilgramage to California and learn the true ways. I already nod my head in its direction several times a day. I'll just keep practicing my Sinanju until my journey.
Sean
 
Touch'O'Death said:
I've been taugh both ways, I just have an opinion on the issue with out refering every one to this or that manual my instructor puts out. If my opinions come out of bad instruction then so be it. One Day I'll Make a pilgramage to California and learn the true ways. I already nod my head in its direction several times a day. I'll just keep practicing my Sinanju until my journey.
Sean
Click to expand...
What 'both ways' are you speaking of here? Being jerked forward and not?
That's fine. But don't you think that the lesson that Robert is speaking of is still important enough to train? YES: if you Can move prior to the jerk forward, great...that would be good. But, this teaches you what to do if you can't or didn't and DO get jerked.

If I understand you correctly then Sean, you don't believe in practicing against attacks that jerk you or where you are already grabbed because you feel you SHOULD have already taken action to prevent this...due to your hightened awareness.
Is this correct?

Your Brother
John
 
2 ways to train mace of aggression... 1) ideal: being jerked forward, 2) environmental: being pushed against a wall. both actual grabs. not sure why you would react that way against an attempted anything, as opposed to conquering shield, dominating circles, or alternating mace...
 
Hm. So there's: teach out of the manual, as the manual describes (but this is motion, not "how"); teach out of the manual but with an awareness that the student should be aware of 'real', 'street' conditions as soon as possible; teach out of the manual but dismantle and reconstruct the technique according to anatomical truths; and I suppose, teach out of the manual but add moves, concepts from other disciplines (generally accepted as heresy). Golly, how's a retired kenpoist to keep it all straight? I know: retire :).
 
Brother John said:
What 'both ways' are you speaking of here? Being jerked forward and not?
That's fine. But don't you think that the lesson that Robert is speaking of is still important enough to train? YES: if you Can move prior to the jerk forward, great...that would be good. But, this teaches you what to do if you can't or didn't and DO get jerked.

If I understand you correctly then Sean, you don't believe in practicing against attacks that jerk you or where you are already grabbed because you feel you SHOULD have already taken action to prevent this...due to your hightened awareness.
Is this correct?

Your Brother
John
Click to expand...
No I believe in using both purposefull compliance and purposefull defiance. My argument is which method should be taught first to a beginner: asif you were aware, as if you were not aware. I'm suggesting that the idealy you are aware and the "what if" is that you are not; so, mace of aggression would be a prposefull compliance tech. Anyhow I would want my child weary of any approach. Its a natural instinct that should not be suppressed for the sake of politness and society.
Sean
 
Touch'O'Death said:
No I believe in using both purposefull compliance and purposefull defiance. My argument is which method should be taught first to a beginner: asif you were aware, as if you were not aware. I'm suggesting that the idealy you are aware and the "what if" is that you are not; so, mace of aggression would be a prposefull compliance tech. Anyhow I would want my child weary of any approach. Its a natural instinct that should not be suppressed for the sake of politness and society.
Sean
Click to expand...
Unfortunately sir you seem to have dug into a position that doesn't address any of the dissenting views here or even explain your own "unique" point of view. Your assersion that it is either "purposeful compliance or defiance," is in itself inaccurate. To wrap your argument within these parameters without consideration of what others have already made painfully obvious is bizarre.

To purposely comply with or defy any action in and of itself requires an "awareness." When training for a "push," or "grab," we are discussing completed acts that have already occurred. Compliance or defiance is not an issue. What is at hand is how we choose to react to these actions.

Push - To move an object by exerting force against it.
(it has already happened)

Grab - To capture or restrain.
(once again, it has already happened)

"Hands on" attacks may not be treated as "attempts" that suggest super human awareness. The idea that; "I will always see it coming and then react as it happens is ludcrious." To do so is to not train for reality, and ignores important mechanisms that allows Kenpo to deal with the effects of grappling type assaults, that may become horizontal if not addressed vertically.

To properly train and prepare for these actions, requires that we allow them to happen then react in a manner that is in our best interest and intentions. "Purposeful Compliance or Defiance" may then be employed only after the fact. To insist on another course of action is unrealistic. I choose to teach my beginners "how" to react when these things happen to "survive the initial assault," and only then can you begin the process of retaliation. If you do not address them, then you have already lost.

As a byproduct of my longest career, I have had more potentially life threatening confrontations in a day then the average person would see in a lifetime. I continue to train those who risk their lives and trust that what I teach them is effective. Every incident a student experiences in the field and during ops, is brought back to the school and is examined in great detail for the purpose of validating the methodologies.

I will go back to my earlier suggestion that was ignored and recommend training these techniques with eyes closed. Can you handle it when you can't see it coming? If not, you're practicing impractical "attempts" and your beginners learn nothing in my opinion and experience, and are on the road to eventual failure sir.

I also know why many cling to this, "I'm always aware" edict. If these things aren't "attempts," most have no idea how to deal with them after the fact, and student will quickly find out that when they are grabbed or hugged, they have not been given the tools to survive.

I respectfully hope for the sake of your students you examine this carefully and perhaps use the "blind training" exercise to examine your "ideal" model for efficacy.
 
Doc said:
I respectfully hope for the sake of your students you examine this carefully and perhaps use the "blind training" exercise to examine your "ideal" model for efficacy.
Click to expand...
OK, I'm envisioning the tech line here. I got a group of children standing there and I tell the first one to close his eyes so I can push him and he can then react. BAM! I dislocate his shoulder, probably lose him as a student, and the rest of the kids don't wanna play that game any more. Lesson: try to stay aware, and don't stand there with your eyes closed. :whip:
Sean :asian:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Martial Artist vs Player of the Martial Way

Previous Thread

Villari in Dallas,Tx?

Next Thread

Latest Discussions

Back
Top