OP
- Thread Starter
- #21
Sorry about that!
Very very true, maybe thats it, but I sure would like to see it happen!
Very very true, maybe thats it, but I sure would like to see it happen!
UFC Style Fighting
- Thread starter 7starmantis
- Start date
T
tmanifold
Guest
I think that sport fighter can do well on the street for two main reasons.
1. The are excellent athletes with good strength and coordination.
2. The are not afraid of getting hit.
The main argument as I see it is this:
Pro NHB Guy: "NHB is the greatest for the street, Tito would kick *** in a street fight."
Anti NHB guy: "The NHB fighting style is not practical for the street because is features rules and is in a controlled enviroment"
Basically the pro guys say NHB fighters could do well in the street and the anti guys say NHB style fighting isn't good for the street. I look at it this way. NHB style fighting is not street style fighting, period. Second, I had the pleasure of Meeting Oleg Taktarov (the only UFC fighter I have met) once and he was the first guy I had ever met whom I thought could kill me fairly easy. Athletes are athlete are athletes. Whether they practice NHB, WW2 Combatives or Penjak Silat, they will be very hard to beat because of their athletic attributes. I am sorry but the myth of a slow, fat, weak man beating a highly condintioned combative athlete because of his amazing technique are false. However, Those elite athletes that practice a True No-holds barred fighting style would have the advantage.
Tony
1. The are excellent athletes with good strength and coordination.
2. The are not afraid of getting hit.
The main argument as I see it is this:
Pro NHB Guy: "NHB is the greatest for the street, Tito would kick *** in a street fight."
Anti NHB guy: "The NHB fighting style is not practical for the street because is features rules and is in a controlled enviroment"
Basically the pro guys say NHB fighters could do well in the street and the anti guys say NHB style fighting isn't good for the street. I look at it this way. NHB style fighting is not street style fighting, period. Second, I had the pleasure of Meeting Oleg Taktarov (the only UFC fighter I have met) once and he was the first guy I had ever met whom I thought could kill me fairly easy. Athletes are athlete are athletes. Whether they practice NHB, WW2 Combatives or Penjak Silat, they will be very hard to beat because of their athletic attributes. I am sorry but the myth of a slow, fat, weak man beating a highly condintioned combative athlete because of his amazing technique are false. However, Those elite athletes that practice a True No-holds barred fighting style would have the advantage.
Tony
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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Since the UFC competitors are strong and fit, and they are going to just take the few strikes you can throw at them and taggle you to the ground. As a striker, your options would be limited to making those few strikes count. How many people can knock someone out with one punch or one kick? Against an average opponent, not uncommon. Now these competitors are not average guys. But I am sure someone can do it.
M
Master of Blades
Guest
Wow..........."Just admit it MAs arnt built to fight people who train in all the loop wholes and are super rounded fighters."
That coming from a guy who trains in Martial Arts and wants to fight in UFC. I suggest you think about your wording in future...Cuz your setting yourself up for a big fall.
That coming from a guy who trains in Martial Arts and wants to fight in UFC. I suggest you think about your wording in future...Cuz your setting yourself up for a big fall.
H
Hansson
Guest
I belive that to be a good fighter you need to fight. The second best thing is sparring as close to fighting as possible.
If you train a style where sparring is not allowed, or very restricted because the techniques are 'too dangerous', I think a real fighting situation will come as a total shock. Nothing can prepare you for it.
If you train your art daily with full power on resisting opponents, I think you're in a way better position to handle a real fight. The few dirty tricks, eye gouging and so on, can be applicated by anyone, and you'll have a far greater chance of making them succesfull if you're used to fighting a resisting opponents.
Talking about defending against four robbers or three guys with bayonets is pretty off I think... noone can handle that. Also defending against knife attacks... I'm really talking beyond my knowledge here, I admit that... but I doubt any systems could prepare you so well the odds is on your side...
If you train a style where sparring is not allowed, or very restricted because the techniques are 'too dangerous', I think a real fighting situation will come as a total shock. Nothing can prepare you for it.
If you train your art daily with full power on resisting opponents, I think you're in a way better position to handle a real fight. The few dirty tricks, eye gouging and so on, can be applicated by anyone, and you'll have a far greater chance of making them succesfull if you're used to fighting a resisting opponents.
Talking about defending against four robbers or three guys with bayonets is pretty off I think... noone can handle that. Also defending against knife attacks... I'm really talking beyond my knowledge here, I admit that... but I doubt any systems could prepare you so well the odds is on your side...
J
J-kid
Guest
To answer fanged over there, Why would you state its not a real fight when 1 no MA or anything else is gonna last under your surcomstances 2 They would proble do alot better then you vs people with weapons 3 what dos WWII have anything to do with UFC fighting or street fight , LAST but not least if you throw anyone right now in the WWII they would die also. Do you think a MA guy is gonna do any better then a UFC fighter , When someone Draws a gun. Thats real lamo think:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:
KennethKu
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Here is an article that discuss how to defeat a grappler.
http://www.chihand.com/Archive/FacingAGrappler.htm
http://www.chihand.com/Archive/FacingAGrappler.htm
F
fanged_seamus
Guest
Here are the points I'm trying to make:
1) UFC is NOT real fighting or street fighting
2) To say UFC is the closest thing to street fighting is stretching the truth
3) To say that MA sparring is street fighting is stretching the truth
4) To assume street fighting is a 1-on-1 event a bad assumption
5) Real fights and street fights are bloody, dangerous events where you don't have a winner, only a survivor
6) I do not think a martial artist would do any better or worse than a UFC guy in real fight
I tried to use the example of WWII to show what a real fight is: a life-or-death struggle where the best you can hope for is to walk away from it alive. Drunk guys picking fights and wanting to brawl is one thing (almost any UFC or MA can handle that), but a SERIOUS fight is bad, no matter who you are or what you system you study.
My complaint is this constant belief that UFC is anything other than a contact sport. Same with MA sparring. I don't think anything can truly prepare you for the dangers of a real fight. I was hoping you'd get the point I was trying to make is all....
Now, let me spell out the rest of my points:
1) Training in a MA system (including UFC) is better than not training
2) Training for realistic encounters is best
3) Real fights should be avoided at all costs
4) You can't win in a real fight; you can only survive it
I think UFC has done a lot for the martial arts, and I like how it's expanded the martial arts. I don't believe that MA is superior to UFC (or the other way around), just different. I respect those who train, regardless of system. But I will NEVER believe that UFC-style fighting is close to real, just as I will NEVER believe sparring is close to real.
Hope my points are clearer now...
Tad Finnegan
PS: Hansson said that he thought my examples were "off." I was exaggerating to make a point: real fights are overwhelmingly bad and should be avoided. To assume you can handle a real fight because you've trained in (insert system name here) is idiocy. I don't mean to sound totally pessimistic, but that's the way I see it.
1) UFC is NOT real fighting or street fighting
2) To say UFC is the closest thing to street fighting is stretching the truth
3) To say that MA sparring is street fighting is stretching the truth
4) To assume street fighting is a 1-on-1 event a bad assumption
5) Real fights and street fights are bloody, dangerous events where you don't have a winner, only a survivor
6) I do not think a martial artist would do any better or worse than a UFC guy in real fight
I tried to use the example of WWII to show what a real fight is: a life-or-death struggle where the best you can hope for is to walk away from it alive. Drunk guys picking fights and wanting to brawl is one thing (almost any UFC or MA can handle that), but a SERIOUS fight is bad, no matter who you are or what you system you study.
My complaint is this constant belief that UFC is anything other than a contact sport. Same with MA sparring. I don't think anything can truly prepare you for the dangers of a real fight. I was hoping you'd get the point I was trying to make is all....
Now, let me spell out the rest of my points:
1) Training in a MA system (including UFC) is better than not training
2) Training for realistic encounters is best
3) Real fights should be avoided at all costs
4) You can't win in a real fight; you can only survive it
I think UFC has done a lot for the martial arts, and I like how it's expanded the martial arts. I don't believe that MA is superior to UFC (or the other way around), just different. I respect those who train, regardless of system. But I will NEVER believe that UFC-style fighting is close to real, just as I will NEVER believe sparring is close to real.
Hope my points are clearer now...
Tad Finnegan
PS: Hansson said that he thought my examples were "off." I was exaggerating to make a point: real fights are overwhelmingly bad and should be avoided. To assume you can handle a real fight because you've trained in (insert system name here) is idiocy. I don't mean to sound totally pessimistic, but that's the way I see it.
T
tmanifold
Guest
First of all, How do you think Mark Kerr would react if he had to fight some one with a knife? He would probably shoot for the legs because as a wrestler and NHB fighter, that is what he knows best and in stressfull situations you always go with your bread and butter. Not because it is the best thing to do but because it is the first thing that comes to mind.
Second, "what does WW2 have to do with stree fighting?" Did you really think that through? Are you saying H2H in WW2 is easier or harder than Street fighting? If you could survive H2H combat in WW2 then you will handle yourself alright on the street.
Third, You are flat out wrong, that anyone right now would die in WW2. As a former soldier that offends me and I am sure that it would offend anybody who has carried a rifle for there country. Yes some would die, but others would not. I disagree that a UFC fighter wouldn't last in a trench but I also disagree with the statement that "anyone here would die too"
Last, I think that a MA guy who has practiced realistic gun disarms would have an advantage to a UFC fighter Who has only trained NHB style. The odds may still be against the MA guy but when practicing gun disarms the only other option is death for you and yours.
You obviously have a skewed view of street fights. They are not high school fights. If I am fighting on the street it is not because some drunk guy bumped in to me, it is because some one has threatened my family. I have known a lot of people who tread on the wrong side of the law. These people would think nothing of stomping you to death with there friends of pulling a knife if they are losing. One must acount for this is one is preparing for self preservation.
Hey, If you love NHB and are willing to make the take the time to become an elite athlete, more power to you. However, realise you are training for a sport, not self preservation.
Cheers,
Tony
J
J-kid
Guest
What i was trying to point out is that the common person wouldnt survive army or not just because of the death ratio , Bombs are droping bullets flying etc. And i was talking about one on one fights where no one pulls out a gun or a knife out of there pocket, MMA is as close as you will get to a street fight without a lawsuit . Just pointing somthing out to you.
Carbon
Blue Belt
Its funny seamus how you say put a fencer in with a kendo but you say put a UFC fighter in a WWI trench.
Its quite ovbious you are making the comparisons unbalanced. Put any man in a WWI and the chances of his survival are minimal I don't care how good of a soldier he is.
Maybe if you said put a UFC fighter in a Kickboxing, Grappling, or Boxing match and he would probably go farther then the average MAist.
Also 7 person sorry I dont' know your full name. I know for a fact you don't train for 18 hours a day. I'm sorry but this is called physically impossible and you would do more damage then good.
Also if you want to talk about real situations? 4 guys kicking in your door to rob you. Sorry not a likely scenario, maybe if you were working in a place where robbery accured but it doesn't take 4 people to rob a house.
Also what person in the world can disable a crook standing 10ft. away with a handgun? Ya makes you think if he was only 8ft. closer I could do anything but he's not. So what it comes down to isn't whats real or what training you do because I bet UFC fighting has alot more real-world application then most MA styles.
You can pretty much rule out any grappling art in the real world. I would say kicking would be very effective and a boxer is very effective in reality fights.
This is really all I have to say its late and I have to go to bed So have fun reading this post.
Its quite ovbious you are making the comparisons unbalanced. Put any man in a WWI and the chances of his survival are minimal I don't care how good of a soldier he is.
Maybe if you said put a UFC fighter in a Kickboxing, Grappling, or Boxing match and he would probably go farther then the average MAist.
Also 7 person sorry I dont' know your full name. I know for a fact you don't train for 18 hours a day. I'm sorry but this is called physically impossible and you would do more damage then good.
Also if you want to talk about real situations? 4 guys kicking in your door to rob you. Sorry not a likely scenario, maybe if you were working in a place where robbery accured but it doesn't take 4 people to rob a house.
Also what person in the world can disable a crook standing 10ft. away with a handgun? Ya makes you think if he was only 8ft. closer I could do anything but he's not. So what it comes down to isn't whats real or what training you do because I bet UFC fighting has alot more real-world application then most MA styles.
You can pretty much rule out any grappling art in the real world. I would say kicking would be very effective and a boxer is very effective in reality fights.
This is really all I have to say its late and I have to go to bed
So have fun reading this post.
I believe I heard it said that in a street fight, anything goes. The average street thug may or may not be an experienced fighter. The other part of this equation however is that they often travel in packs, and will not wait for you to take em on 1 by 1. They will jump you enmasse and pound you...no refs, not stopping for blood.
The common person cant fight worth beans. They throw haymakers. They swing wide. Put 5 together. Now, you have a problem. Human wave technique works wonders.
As to WW2...I'm glad I wasn't there. 2x glad I wasn't in Korea, and 10x glad I wasn't in Vietnam. I've heard stories...that was enough. I know a guy who was recently in Afganistan...he's got a different look in his eyes now...its scary. (2nd BB Kenpo, had MMA experience)
My grandfather told me a story once..about a unit in the 3rd Army during WW2...guy was a boxer...bragged about how tough he was, how many fights he won, etc... first firefight he froze up. Right after the guy next to him splashed his brains on him. He snapped. So much for the tough guy.
The common person wouldn't survive in the army...thats why they have the training they do. Hell, I can't think of more than 3-4 people that I know who would make it thru basic (I wouldn't).
No one pulls a gun or knife? Read the paper. Talk to the cops.
MMA may be as close to a street fight as you can get legally....
Microsoft Flight Simulator is also as close to flying a plane as you can get without a plane and a pilots licence.
Neither truely prepare you for the reality of the true experience.
If you want to train for a sport, train for a sport. If you want to train for war, train for war. Neither prepares you for the other.
:asian:
The common person cant fight worth beans. They throw haymakers. They swing wide. Put 5 together. Now, you have a problem. Human wave technique works wonders.
As to WW2...I'm glad I wasn't there. 2x glad I wasn't in Korea, and 10x glad I wasn't in Vietnam. I've heard stories...that was enough. I know a guy who was recently in Afganistan...he's got a different look in his eyes now...its scary. (2nd BB Kenpo, had MMA experience)
My grandfather told me a story once..about a unit in the 3rd Army during WW2...guy was a boxer...bragged about how tough he was, how many fights he won, etc... first firefight he froze up. Right after the guy next to him splashed his brains on him. He snapped. So much for the tough guy.
The common person wouldn't survive in the army...thats why they have the training they do. Hell, I can't think of more than 3-4 people that I know who would make it thru basic (I wouldn't).
No one pulls a gun or knife? Read the paper. Talk to the cops.
MMA may be as close to a street fight as you can get legally....
Microsoft Flight Simulator is also as close to flying a plane as you can get without a plane and a pilots licence.
Neither truely prepare you for the reality of the true experience.
If you want to train for a sport, train for a sport. If you want to train for war, train for war. Neither prepares you for the other.
:asian:
H
Hansson
Guest
So... the question still remains... how to train for war (if the analogy (?) holds true for a streetfight situation)? Is dirty secret street techniques, practiced in a form, or defense against three opponents, practiced in a form, a better preparation than 'sport' training in full power with resisting opponents in BJJ or Muay Thai? I don't think so, but I'm sure others do.
The 14th Style
Orange Belt
You make a great point.
But isn't this just the flavor of the month? Every couple of years one art gets popular and is hailed as almost unbeatable or the most realistic art ever. Back in the 80s, it was the Ninja craze and then god knows what else. Wasn't Jkd huge for awhile ? Just a few years ago it was the Gracie's and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Everybody and their mothers said it was unbeatable. Now these are all fine arts and I mean no disrespect to anybody. But no art is perfect and to say this art or that art is the greatest ever. Or that that anybody that doesn't do it a certain way, can't defend themselves. Or doesn't know what they are doing, is just silly in my humble opinion.
The UFC and Pride are great and I respect the Martial Artists that participate. But it is in a ring, you are fighting for money, you know ahead of time who you are going to fight, there are TV cameras on. YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. If you are outclassed and getting your *** kicked, more than likely the ref will stop the fight.
When someone is breaking into your house and you are the only thing that stands between your family and god knows what. Or someone in an alley or bar or mall has decided that it's time for you to die, well that's a whole different ball game. Some people will fight, some will run and some will freeze. No matter what art. You just never know. Just my opinion.
Respectfully Russ
F
fanged_seamus
Guest
We're drifting off-topic on this thread, but I want to make my point (once again, hopefully clearly) here. Ignore the exaggerated examples from earlier to make this easy:
I do NOT believe a real or street fight is EVER a 1-on-1, weaponless encounter.
A UFC competitor AND a skilled martial artist should be able to handle a confrontation against a single, weaponless attacker if they have trained for it (after all, that's why many of us take martial arts). But that's a CONFRONTATION, not a fight. Half the time, you can talk your way out of these or walk away.
From my viewpoint, a real or street fight is a multiple attacker scenario, usually with weapons. This is MUCH more common than you are acknowledging. Literally, each week, someone is robbed in my neighborhood at gunpoint. Two to three attackers do the robbing, and they pick single targets (and never more than a group of two). Home invasions occur occasionally, too, and that's usually three to six people, armed, bursting into your house to rob you. Dealing with THESE situations is dangerous beyond belief, and that's what I would consider a "real fight."
I DON'T think MA has a major advantage over UFC in these cases, except at the VERY HIGHEST training levels. I don't think ANY of us are truly prepared to deal with that kind of situation.
My WHOLE POINT is that if you think a street fight is some testosterone-laden frat boy (no offense to any of you on the thread) looking at your girlfriend, you're a fool. Those situations are common, we all train to deal with them, but they aren't "real" from my point of view. It's a confrontation, a puffing up of the chest. In fact, resorting to violence in those cases is a sign that you've already lost the confrontation. UFC, MA, whichever can handle it. But that's not a street fight as I see it.
I'll try to keep on-topic from now on....
Tad
I do NOT believe a real or street fight is EVER a 1-on-1, weaponless encounter.
A UFC competitor AND a skilled martial artist should be able to handle a confrontation against a single, weaponless attacker if they have trained for it (after all, that's why many of us take martial arts). But that's a CONFRONTATION, not a fight. Half the time, you can talk your way out of these or walk away.
From my viewpoint, a real or street fight is a multiple attacker scenario, usually with weapons. This is MUCH more common than you are acknowledging. Literally, each week, someone is robbed in my neighborhood at gunpoint. Two to three attackers do the robbing, and they pick single targets (and never more than a group of two). Home invasions occur occasionally, too, and that's usually three to six people, armed, bursting into your house to rob you. Dealing with THESE situations is dangerous beyond belief, and that's what I would consider a "real fight."
I DON'T think MA has a major advantage over UFC in these cases, except at the VERY HIGHEST training levels. I don't think ANY of us are truly prepared to deal with that kind of situation.
My WHOLE POINT is that if you think a street fight is some testosterone-laden frat boy (no offense to any of you on the thread) looking at your girlfriend, you're a fool. Those situations are common, we all train to deal with them, but they aren't "real" from my point of view. It's a confrontation, a puffing up of the chest. In fact, resorting to violence in those cases is a sign that you've already lost the confrontation. UFC, MA, whichever can handle it. But that's not a street fight as I see it.
I'll try to keep on-topic from now on....
Tad
Carbon
Blue Belt
Ya I agree with you about that fanged_seamus, I mean most street fights are a group of people beating up 1 person because they are to scared to lose a fight.
I don't know what it is, but why are people scared to lose a fight? I mean it doesn't really matter sure you get hurt and such but nothing is proved no one is better than the other person you lost a fight and that is all that it is. You might have a hurt ego but thats about it.
The only thing that pisses me off is when someone knows they have won a fight and are still determined to beat the person and try to mess them up as much as they can for what reason? I don't know.
Its funny how people at my school think they are bad @$$'s because 1 of them and 3 of their friends beat-up 1 person and then think no one can touch them.
I don't know what it is, but why are people scared to lose a fight? I mean it doesn't really matter sure you get hurt and such but nothing is proved no one is better than the other person you lost a fight and that is all that it is. You might have a hurt ego but thats about it.
The only thing that pisses me off is when someone knows they have won a fight and are still determined to beat the person and try to mess them up as much as they can for what reason? I don't know.
Its funny how people at my school think they are bad @$$'s because 1 of them and 3 of their friends beat-up 1 person and then think no one can touch them.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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MA is not the end all, be all security tool , all by itself. If you are talking about total security, you inevitably end up talking about firearms. :uzi: MA is about unarmed combat. Clint Eastwood :"A man got to know his limitation"
MA does not pretend to make anyone a Super Human Being. (Unless you are that guy who claims to KO you without touching you , but with his 'GI' or whatever )
MA does not pretend to make anyone a Super Human Being. (Unless you are that guy who claims to KO you without touching you , but with his 'GI' or whatever
)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #38
Let me calrify for you, I wasn't saying that I train 18 hours a day, I was refereing to a post earlier about pro athletes who do nothign but train all day as their job. I was saying that there have to be somewhere out there people who train like the pro UFC guys "all day" (that again is an exageration to make a point) but who study MA.
I also want to say that I don't share the opinion here that a MAist is trained to fight an unarmed confrontation against one attacker. Maybe you guys, but I train against multiple attackers with multiple weapons.
7sm
KennethKu
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How do you handle 3-4 guys coming at you at the same time, unarmed, let alone with baseball bats, lead pipes or machete/samurai blades?
LOL I would hope:
1. Never get into that kind of situation
2. Have a gun with me
3. Run faster than a speedy bullet
OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
HAHA, I totaly agree with your theories on that situation. I do however train with several buddies those very situations, don't ask me why, but we have this really large imagination I guess!!
Really keeps you in shape though!!
7sm
Really keeps you in shape though!!
7sm
