UFC proves KF useless

[Tez3]

Thanks! Jerome Lebanner hits like a truck, but has a glass chin. Sami Berik has great footwork

Sami is a great guy, I posted up about him on another thread but was shouted down about him as he was a 'loser' in some people's eyes, however he had fought some of the best who have gone on to the UFC, he's not afraid to take a fight on and he's not afraid to experiment as well as use what he knows from WC. He fought and beat Abdul Mohamed a hugely strong wrestler. Sami's record really does belie his achievements and I am so pleased that these are appreciated by those that understand, so thank you so much for this.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Sami is a great guy, I posted up about him on another thread but was shouted down about him as he was a 'loser' in some people's eyes, however he had fought some of the best who have gone on to the UFC, he's not afraid to take a fight on and he's not afraid to experiment as well as use what he knows from WC. He fought and beat Abdul Mohamed a hugely strong wrestler. Sami's record really does belie his achievements and I am so pleased that these are appreciated by those that understand, so thank you so much for this.

You're welcome! what I like about Sami is how he uses his footwork to apply distancing with intercepting timing. This is the same strategy that Lyoto Machida uses. This is what sets him apart from most MMA fighers who all do the same things in the same way, which makes it boring to watch.

 

[ALEX WHITE]

I am curious as to the opinions of the people here about somethign that is really gaining some big publicity. With the explosion of the UFC and the MMA "style" of fighting, why is it we do not see kung fu practitioners in these fights? Or why do we not see them doing well in them? Has the modern MMA style of fighting finally proven kung fu to be useless and outdated? Articles are being presented using the terms "reality" and "full ground curriculum" as synonymous. Is this true?

What do you think? Why do you feel kung fu or CMA guys are not doing well in these competitions? What is it that takes thier effectivenss away? In true reality based fighting, does the UFC or MMA style of fighting truly retire kung fu or chinese martial arts? I'm not trying to start a fire here and I'm not really interested in ego at all. But serious response to this question I'm interested in. Seriously, why do you feel this is happening? The fact that kung fu does horrible in these fights is true, its fact....I'm interested in your thoughts as to why that is so. Also, what can CMAist do to combat this? Or is there anything we can do to survive this evolution of fighting if you will?


7sm

I personally have heard this story a billion times over, but it is not the style it is the practitioner and the setting, I know for sure I wouldn't be able to get in to the UFC or Bellator, for one reason, my particular art is used for trapping, rapid strikes and close range combat, ON THE STREETS!
Kung Fu was designed where there was no rules what so ever, monks could defend themselves, not play by rules and win titles. I classify martial arts in to 3 families, Self Defence Arts (Wing Chun, Hapkido, etc.), War Arts (Krav Maga, CQB, etc.), Sport Arts (MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, etc.).
but don't get me wrong you can use mma on the street but you would not be able to deflect the wild "thugaroo" haymakers that people can witness at just about any barroom brawl thrown by people that know absolutely NOTHING., but as I stated in the beginning, styles are not the determining factor of the fight as in there is no style vs style, just really good practitioner of one art vs another really good practitioner of another art. certain arts fit certain people well, I do Wing Chun, that's my philosophy & opinion on this topic...

 

[Tez3]

but don't get me wrong you can use mma on the street but you would not be able to deflect the wild "thugaroo" haymakers that people can witness at just about any barroom brawl thrown by people that know absolutely NOTHING

Actually there's no reason to think that someone who trains MMA wouldn't be able to deflect these punches anymore than any other martial artist or even non martial artist. I agree it's the practitioner rather than the actual art but most MMA fighters have a core art if not more than one in what you call 'self defence' arts. A good many of them aren't, here at least, unaware or inexperienced in what you call 'the street' though to be honest that always sounds a bit over dramatic. This is two MMA fighters from here, good fighters in competition and out on the street literally ( it was a mate's stag night which is why they were dressed as females)

 

[ALEX WHITE]

Actually there's no reason to think that someone who trains MMA wouldn't be able to deflect these punches anymore than any other martial artist or even non martial artist. I agree it's the practitioner rather than the actual art but most MMA fighters have a core art if not more than one in what you call 'self defence' arts. A good many of them aren't, here at least, unaware or inexperienced in what you call 'the street' though to be honest that always sounds a bit over dramatic. This is two MMA fighters from here, good fighters in competition and out on the street literally ( it was a mate's stag night which is why they were dressed as females)

never knew that they have a core art, I thought mma was muay thai and brazillian jiu jitsu. interesting video too

 

[Tony Dismukes]

never knew that they have a core art, I thought mma was muay thai and brazillian jiu jitsu. interesting video too

Muay Thai and BJJ are two of the more common core arts used by MMA fighters, but not the only ones. Both of those arts do have tools which are more than adequate for dealing with wild haymakers.

For that matter, any pro MMA fighter will have experience dealing with those kind of haymakers. That's because at the amateur level where they start out fights often devolve into wild slugfests. The reason you don't see the sloppy haymakers at the pro level is that the fighters have reached the level where those sorts of tactics don't work any more.

 

[ALEX WHITE]

Muay Thai and BJJ are two of the more common core arts used by MMA fighters, but not the only ones. Both of those arts do have tools which are more than adequate for dealing with wild haymakers.

For that matter, any pro MMA fighter will have experience dealing with those kind of haymakers. That's because at the amateur level where they start out fights often devolve into wild slugfests. The reason you don't see the sloppy haymakers at the pro level is that the fighters have reached the level where those sorts of tactics don't work any more.

that awnsers essentially all of my questions about mma, Thank you

 

[drop bear]

I personally have heard this story a billion times over, but it is not the style it is the practitioner and the setting, I know for sure I wouldn't be able to get in to the UFC or Bellator, for one reason, my particular art is used for trapping, rapid strikes and close range combat, ON THE STREETS!
Kung Fu was designed where there was no rules what so ever, monks could defend themselves, not play by rules and win titles. I classify martial arts in to 3 families, Self Defence Arts (Wing Chun, Hapkido, etc.), War Arts (Krav Maga, CQB, etc.), Sport Arts (MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, etc.).
but don't get me wrong you can use mma on the street but you would not be able to deflect the wild "thugaroo" haymakers that people can witness at just about any barroom brawl thrown by people that know absolutely NOTHING., but as I stated in the beginning, styles are not the determining factor of the fight as in there is no style vs style, just really good practitioner of one art vs another really good practitioner of another art. certain arts fit certain people well, I do Wing Chun, that's my philosophy & opinion on this topic...

i thought it wasn't the style?

 

[drop bear]

Muay Thai and BJJ are two of the more common core arts used by MMA fighters, but not the only ones. Both of those arts do have tools which are more than adequate for dealing with wild haymakers.

For that matter, any pro MMA fighter will have experience dealing with those kind of haymakers. That's because at the amateur level where they start out fights often devolve into wild slugfests. The reason you don't see the sloppy haymakers at the pro level is that the fighters have reached the level where those sorts of tactics don't work any more.

they become overhands. And the we move into a discussion as to why a pro fighters round punch works and a street fighters not so much. But the simple answer is the pro fighter throws them better.

 

[Danny T]

they become overhands. And the we move into a discussion as to why a pro fighters round punch works and a street fighters not so much. But the simple answer is the pro fighter throws them better.

It's a punch that works well 'if' it connects because of how committed a punch it is. The reason is can work well by high level amateurs and pros is being able to set the opponent up. Seldom does it work when just thrown as a wild overhand in the higher levels.

 

[drop bear]

It's a punch that works well 'if' it connects because of how committed a punch it is. The reason is can work well by high level amateurs and pros is being able to set the opponent up. Seldom does it work when just thrown as a wild overhand in the higher levels.

agree
and boils down to kung fu and mma a bit defending an overhand from your friend in your club is one thing defending Adrian pang is another.

you have to be exposed to great fighters to be a great fighter.

 

[Thunder Foot]

In my opinion the reason why MMA fighters are successful in their competitions and KF is not is due to the fact that the sport is not lucrative enough to draw the attention of practitioners who will devote themselves to a fanatical training regime for pennies to the dollar. It's a known statement that MMA fighters don't really make much money, especially given the toll on the body. 99% of pro fighters are driven by money, and the efforts of potential talent are better spent in boxing or kickboxing... where the international influence is greater, thus income potential is also greater.

 

[Tez3]

In my opinion the reason why MMA fighters are successful in their competitions and KF is not is due to the fact that the sport is not lucrative enough to draw the attention of practitioners who will devote themselves to a fanatical training regime for pennies to the dollar. It's a known statement that MMA fighters don't really make much money, especially given the toll on the body. 99% of pro fighters are driven by money, and the efforts of potential talent are better spent in boxing or kickboxing... where the international influence is greater, thus income potential is also greater.

I wouldn't say so many fighters are driven by money, for many it's the drive to be the best and to push themselves to see how far they can go. If it were about money you wouldn't have any fighters because as you said there's not that much in MMA. Boxing doesn't interest many martial arts in a competitive way and the money isn't much better unless you mange to get to the top. Kick boxing is the same. The money in these sports is in sponsorship and advertising etc.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In my opinion the reason why MMA fighters are successful in their competitions and KF is not is due to the fact that the sport is not lucrative enough to draw the attention of practitioners who will devote themselves to a fanatical training regime for pennies to the dollar. It's a known statement that MMA fighters don't really make much money, especially given the toll on the body. 99% of pro fighters are driven by money, and the efforts of potential talent are better spent in boxing or kickboxing... where the international influence is greater, thus income potential is also greater.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that Kung Fu based fighters are less likely to devote themselves to a demanding but poorly paid sport than fighters with a foundation in boxing/wrestling/BJJ/judo/Muay Thai/karate/etc? Why would that be? I've never heard anyone claim that Kung Fu practitioners are more mercenary than other martial artists.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Well let me start with saying that it is a bit of an enigma to attempt explanation of such a generalization with why no Kung Fu contenders are in MMA. But when I consider the possibilities, I believe a contributing factor may be that the MMA culture in China (where Kung Fu has widely been culturally identified) hasn't gained the needed momentum as in other countries. If you've had the pleasure of visiting China within the past few years, you might be surprised to see a new trend of excitement and promotion in the sport of Boxing nationally as well as furthered Sanda/Sanshou promotion. Why that is remains up for debate, but my opinion on it is because the recognition and jointly the income potential of boxing far exceeds that of MMA. Boxing is an Olympic Sport, so the potential of all this to me begins and expands from that point.

As far as the Fighters and their training, I'll give everyone a fair look and say that they are all devoted. But going Pro is not a part-time thing as you sign into a contract binding fighting agreement. Training then becomes a full-time job and operating/living expenses become a harsh reality. Some things to consider... To take it a step further we could ask a parallel of the question in, why haven't any real boxing based fighters (save one in Ray Mercer) competed in MMA? And jointly, does that prove that boxing is useless? Just my $0.02

 

[drop bear]

Well let me start with saying that it is a bit of an enigma to attempt explanation of such a generalization with why no Kung Fu contenders are in MMA. But when I consider the possibilities, I believe a contributing factor may be that the MMA culture in China (where Kung Fu has widely been culturally identified) hasn't gained the needed momentum as in other countries. If you've had the pleasure of visiting China within the past few years, you might be surprised to see a new trend of excitement and promotion in the sport of Boxing nationally as well as furthered Sanda/Sanshou promotion. Why that is remains up for debate, but my opinion on it is because the recognition and jointly the income potential of boxing far exceeds that of MMA. Boxing is an Olympic Sport, so the potential of all this to me begins and expands from that point.

As far as the Fighters and their training, I'll give everyone a fair look and say that they are all devoted. But going Pro is not a part-time thing as you sign into a contract binding fighting agreement. Training then becomes a full-time job and operating/living expenses become a harsh reality. Some things to consider... To take it a step further we could ask a parallel of the question in, why haven't any real boxing based fighters (save one in Ray Mercer) competed in MMA? And jointly, does that prove that boxing is useless? Just my $0.02

more money in boxing

 

[Tez3]

As with many sports, MMA has a top layer of professionals and a large base of amateurs who train and fight because they enjoy it. When people say 'oh X style doesn't have anyone in MMA' what they mean is they don't know anyone who is on that top layer of elite professionals, this disregards all the amateurs who do MMA. The top layer again like other sports, is made up of a relatively small amount of people and to base your views on such a small amount will skew the reality of just who is training MMA. Boxing is a hugely popular sport we have thousands of amateur boxers in the UK, most of whom have no intentions of ever going pro, likewise MMA.
MMA is still a very small sport, it's professionals in the world number in the hundreds only. It's not to say that KF doesn't work, it means that MMA more likely hasn't attracted enough people to it yet.

The UFC isn't MMA, it's a very large, very successful entertainment company, it takes fighters who will sell tickets and television time, that doesn't necessarily mean the very best fighters but the most popular ones ie local to where the show is held, well known through advertising and sponsorship. The UFC is for making money, nothing wrong with that of course, but even as a big company they only use a relatively few fighters, mostly home grown because that's what sells the tickets, that system works everywhere, it's a tried and tested formula, they'd be foolish not to. When they come to the UK they use UK fighters as much as possible.

However in the UK certainly and I would also think the US there isn't the amount of KF you would find in Asia so the fighters will comes from backgrounds that are more common. In the UK I know we have more fighters coming from TKD and karate than the US does, more of their fighters come from wrestling than in the UK because wrestling is very big in the US, our fighters base tends to be more Judo and BJJ. All these things don't mean one style is better than another in MMA, it means there is a bigger base for fighters to come from. If the UFC make it to China or there is a very big MMA promotion that runs fight nights there,( I believe there are some MMA fight shows there), I would expect to see a large proportion of KF fighters in there doing well. It will depends on how popular MMA becomes, it's still a very small sport in the USA which has the biggest promoters, it's still a small sport in Europe where we have quite a few promotions that while not as big as the UFC are nearly so. Judging whether a style is successful or not in MMA is much harder than you think with such small numbers to judge by. You also need to look at the larger amateur base which is very difficult before you deem a style ineffective.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To take it a step further we could ask a parallel of the question in, why haven't any real boxing based fighters (save one in Ray Mercer) competed in MMA? And jointly, does that prove that boxing is useless?

A high percentage (possibly a majority) of professional MMA fighters do train boxing and it makes up a substantial portion of their training. It's definitely not accurate to say that there are no boxing based fighters competing in MMA. (There have also been more professional boxers than Mercer who have given MMA a try.)

I suspect you mean that there are no fighters who are simultaneously active competing in boxing and MMA at a high level. The reasons for that are partially monetary, but also due to the fact that it's difficult to train for both at a high level at the same time*. If you train your punching enough to be competitive in boxing, then you are neglecting the grappling you need for MMA. If you train your grappling enough to be competitive in MMA, then you aren't spending enough time on punching for your boxing career.

*(I'm speaking of the higher levels of competition. You could train MMA and possibly fight boxing at the lower levels or vice versa.)

Regarding the original claim concerning CMA practitioners, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of MMA fighters do not train in Kung Fu or have a Kung Fu background. Even for those fighters who do have a CMA background, I'm not sure whether many of them still use their classical Kung Fu forms as a major component of training. (They might. I know Lyoto Machida still practices his karate kata, though I'm not sure what percentage of his training he devotes to that.)

That doesn't mean Kung Fu is useless (as the OP suggested), of course. It doesn't even necessarily mean that it is useless for MMA. It may just mean that no one has yet figured out the best way to adapt traditional CMA to an MMA environment.

 

[Tez3]

*(I'm speaking of the higher levels of competition. You could train MMA and possibly fight boxing at the lower levels or vice versa.)

I agree with what you are saying, I know a good many amateur fighters who also compete in boxing, kick boxing, karate, Judo and BJJ competitions. There's no reason they shouldn't compete in MMA as well as any style they are competent in, as you say the elite fighters can't do this however the grass roots can and does.
The interest has to be there for KF people to want to train to fight MMA, it may well not be. It can be as simple as that, that the majority of KF people aren't interested in MMA any more than they are interested in karate competitions.

 

[clfsean]

The interest has to be there for KF people to want to train to fight MMA, it may well not be. It can be as simple as that, that the majority of KF people aren't interested in MMA any more than they are interested in karate competitions.

oooohhhhhh... you might be on to something ...