U.S based schools mostly useless?

Rumy73

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This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.

I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.

Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?

In korea, a black can be had in a year.
 
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Rumy73

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This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.

I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.

Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?

Tkd has problems, limitations and strengths. This is true of anything, especially for things made for mass consumption. Tkd can be a solid basis for self defense, mma or anything else with tweaking and personal initiative to enhance it. What works against a tkd player may fail against a different style. To overcome these blind spots, broad exposure is key if one wants to fight in a open style match. And to a certain extent, this applies to sd situations. Watch out for tunnel vision, it is a great enemy.
 
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Kong Soo Do

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Drasken...that is what I have found a lot of people on this BBS put down sport TKD and some TKD in general calling our kicks flicky and lacking power...

I don't think it is a matter of putting sport TKD down, rather it is addressing it for what it actually is and does. Some take offense to this though. Sport TKD is great if that is what you're after. Great for sport, conditioning and a hobby. And although the window dressing is there (or what is perceived by the masses to be window dressing), it isn't a martial art when trained for with this methodology. And again, that's okay if sport training methodology is what a person is after. It shouldn't be confused with TKD that is trained from an art perspective and training methodology. Two different animals.
 

Kong Soo Do

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In korea, a black can be had in a year.

Correct. Usually a child. As discussed in another thread/section, a child of 9 in Korea can be a 3rd Dan in Hapkido...if they have mommy and daddy pay the $500 testing fee.

Unfortunately it seems that these youth quickly abandon TKD soon after other interests are discovered and/or mandated. The quick rise to BB is merely to prop up the numbers of the KKW making it appear to be something that it isn't.
 

Master Dan

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Let's say person #1 tells person #2 a joke he just came up with. #2 likes the joke and tells it to person #3. Chances are, he's going to tell the joke the same way it was told to him.

But what happens when the joke becomes so popular, it's told to person #20,856 by person #20,855? I'm guessing it's not going to sound the same as it was when #1 came up with it. There are bound to be some deviations.

Maybe TKD became too popular to remain loyal to its original, defensive-use martial art form, and too many people are not getting what they're supposed to out of it?

I think the word Popular could be replaced with extremecommercialization and in the replication process just like in many chemicalsolutions dilution or even complete lack of following the original formula byothers licensed to make the product water it down to make a quick buck.Westernization of what was to be an Eastern Art form would also be at fault butthat is part and parcel to commercialization. I blame the Olympics for thewatering down of what was a much better full contact fighting system usinghands with feet as being just as important before such and emphasis on purelyOlympic sport rule and worshiping points over knock out.

If this was not so then why were so many KMA pioneers against unified TKD andKKW in the beginning? because they feared the watering down on their personalart form. My own Supreme GM stated with disgust in 2002 of the lack of usinghands in TKD but he is jointly to blame with all others in promoting so much ofthe Olympic commercialization of TKD and in the end I think he found that theOlympics and the NGB was not the friend to him or the art he had hoped for? TheOlympics in China was historical because for the first time in history morepeople were practicing TKD in China than Wu Shoo Gung Fu but that was due toparticipation in the colleges and a sport format they could participate in.

I find the original comment from the OP to be baiting and uneducated.Generalizations of an entire area or art have no value. All that matters is thestudent who wants self defense should find someone who can teach that and thosewho have aspirations to reach some goal in sport competition should find thatperson and older people who need to train in a more holistic format that is ageappropriate should find that instructor. The finest instructors in the worldare everywhere in every state and country it is your Karma to find them bystudy and inspiration.

 

Rumy73

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I think the word Popular could be replaced with extremecommercialization and in the replication process just like in many chemicalsolutions dilution or even complete lack of following the original formula byothers licensed to make the product water it down to make a quick buck.Westernization of what was to be an Eastern Art form would also be at fault butthat is part and parcel to commercialization. I blame the Olympics for thewatering down of what was a much better full contact fighting system usinghands with feet as being just as important before such and emphasis on purelyOlympic sport rule and worshiping points over knock out.

If this was not so then why were so many KMA pioneers against unified TKD andKKW in the beginning? because they feared the watering down on their personalart form. My own Supreme GM stated with disgust in 2002 of the lack of usinghands in TKD but he is jointly to blame with all others in promoting so much ofthe Olympic commercialization of TKD and in the end I think he found that theOlympics and the NGB was not the friend to him or the art he had hoped for? TheOlympics in China was historical because for the first time in history morepeople were practicing TKD in China than Wu Shoo Gung Fu but that was due toparticipation in the colleges and a sport format they could participate in.

I find the original comment from the OP to be baiting and uneducated.Generalizations of an entire area or art have no value. All that matters is thestudent who wants self defense should find someone who can teach that and thosewho have aspirations to reach some goal in sport competition should find thatperson and older people who need to train in a more holistic format that is ageappropriate should find that instructor. The finest instructors in the worldare everywhere in every state and country it is your Karma to find them bystudy and inspiration.


I agree. I said the same thing. Growth is contingent on the student's desire for it.
 

Napitenkah

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I've seen the video before.
Joe Rogan is a spokeperson for the UFC, and that is relevant when you consider the motives for what he is talking about. It is not just because he feels like sharing his honest opinion about it.
Joe Rogan was in WTF kukkiwon style Taekwondo, where they don't punch at all.
I have a video of me in the black belt test, doing the same.
But I can adapt quick. If I spar, and they say, just punch to the torso, then I do.
Just do movements from a certain form, then I do. It helps students became more adaptable and ready to use more.
He was in it for atleast 10 years, was an instructor, and I would hear him talk about it, as it became painfully clear, that unless he was deliberately omitting things, for the sake of the UFC propaganda, he doesn't know a lot about Taekwondo.
He didn't prepare properly for the switch to kickboxing, where you box and kick, and instead of apparently recognizing that, he blames Taekwondo.
He didn't seem to even know about ITF.
The sparring with nothing but kicks, is good to become proficient at kicks.
 

Master Dan

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What alarms me more is the generation gap of knowlege and respect that commercialization has caused to the traditional art form and the total lack of value by younger generations for pioneers and the prominent first students of those pioneers. Myself and many of my friends who are all senior masters or GM just see no value in teaching the public?
 

Napitenkah

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The martial art itself, nothing can be done to it. It is still waiting there for someone to express it as fully as they can, or in whatever way their awareness allows.
Olympic style TKD, is just something people talk about, like what goes on in the pentagon.
What happens is what people do, and I am not confused about the world I Iive in.
People can seem to take a martial art and use it any way they wish, but it does not harm the martial art, the Martial art is like universal energy, it does whatever you put into it, but it cannot be violated of itself.
If everyone was of the same awareness, no one would have anything to complain about.
Because of awareness, people would get bored of that, real quick.
 

Cyriacus

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The martial art itself, nothing can be done to it. It is still waiting there for someone to express it as fully as they can, or in whatever way their awareness allows.
Olympic style TKD, is just something people talk about, like what goes on in the pentagon.
What happens is what people do, and I am not confused about the world I Iive in.
People can seem to take a martial art and use it any way they wish, but it does not harm the martial art, the Martial art is like universal energy, it does whatever you put into it, but it cannot be violated of itself.
If everyone was of the same awareness, no one would have anything to complain about.
Because of awareness, people would get bored of that, real quick.

Imma blow your mind:

Martial Arts are totally meaningless, the universe doesnt care about them, they have no identity, they mean nothing, and they are nothing more than systemized ways of making money, achieving fitness, building confidence, refining the gentle art of murder, self protection, or whatever its been themed around for the system in question.

They cant be violated because it doesnt exist outside of the constructs people build for them. What you do with them doesnt affect them because their identity is imaginary. Martial Arts only have any value or significance to the beholder. And the beholder might not care. Or they might. Who knows!
 

Napitenkah

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Are you serious about this statement? Where have your learned your TKD?

When they spar in competition, of course, which should have been obvious. It is the only time that you just kick.
Which is what Joe Rogan was talking about when he switched to Kickboxing.

In class I learned a plethora of strikes.
Punches, knife hand strikes, but when we sparred, we were told not to use them.
 

Napitenkah

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Imma blow your mind:

Martial Arts are totally meaningless, the universe doesnt care about them, they have no identity, they mean nothing, and they are nothing more than systemized ways of making money, achieving fitness, building confidence, refining the gentle art of murder, self protection, or whatever its been themed around for the system in question.

They cant be violated because it doesnt exist outside of the constructs people build for them. What you do with them doesnt affect them because their identity is imaginary. Martial Arts only have any value or significance to the beholder. And the beholder might not care. Or they might. Who knows!

What I said. LOL
 

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