digitalronin
Green Belt
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using pads or partners vs. the noncontact method of training?
air vs contact training
- Thread starter digitalronin
- Start date
One teaches you to hit people and get hit, the other teaches you to pretend to hit people and pretend to get hit.
OP
OP
digitalronin
Green Belt
Basically trying to determine why certain schools teach pure forms forms (tai chi), some teach a mixture (tkd, kenpo) while others are pure contact (boxing, muy thai). Logically there must be some reason why each preference and used or not used. Is for example body mechanics absorbed by the student faster in a noncontact aproach?
Ok, well Tai Chi is not usually practiced for its "how to fight" aspects.
Instead it is a really great way to stay healthy and improve balance, circulation, reduce stress, etc.
It is hard to box into your 70's, but doing Tai Chi is possible, and rather beneficial.
Martial arts has many faces, and not all of them have to do with learning to fight, and this is a good thing, because everyone needs to stay healthy, but not everyone needs to fight, or even spar.
Instead it is a really great way to stay healthy and improve balance, circulation, reduce stress, etc.
It is hard to box into your 70's, but doing Tai Chi is possible, and rather beneficial.
Martial arts has many faces, and not all of them have to do with learning to fight, and this is a good thing, because everyone needs to stay healthy, but not everyone needs to fight, or even spar.
Anytime one is training with a live partner or training pads, there will be a different feel to whatever it is that you're doing. We can run through many things in the air and think that we're doing them correctly, but once we put that body or focus mit in front of us, things certainly will change.
Mike
Mike
C
c2kenpo
Guest
Both are accecptable. Boxers use mirrors to focus on target placement for punches. I use mirrrors for the same traiinin purpose ie hitting the right target even tho my opponent may be a different height that always helps.
training with partner allows you to learn the dynamics of the martial art you are studying. Working with partners or bags makes things more difficult but that is what we should be doing in our art is contantly improving.
David Gunzburg
training with partner allows you to learn the dynamics of the martial art you are studying. Working with partners or bags makes things more difficult but that is what we should be doing in our art is contantly improving.
David Gunzburg
Practicing in the air does allow one to work alone without a partner and remembering sequences of motion. This also helps in learning how to visualize action/attacker and working on different segments (such as stances, punches, kicks, etc.)
Contact practice allows one to feel how it is done on a partner (especially when partners come in different sizes), how to adjust whenever needed, and timing with "give & take".
Doing either way consistently does allow "muscle memory" to develop. It all depends on what your purpose is for doing contact & non-contact practice.
- Ceicei
Contact practice allows one to feel how it is done on a partner (especially when partners come in different sizes), how to adjust whenever needed, and timing with "give & take".
Doing either way consistently does allow "muscle memory" to develop. It all depends on what your purpose is for doing contact & non-contact practice.
- Ceicei
A
aikido2249
Guest
I think its good to practice both ways...especially on your forms. forms are a very important part of martial arts...but to get the technique right it needs to be done with a partner so you can know whether how effective you can be also. if it goes to that level.
rutherford
Master Black Belt
I practice striking, falling, rolling, and fundamental movements both unarmed and with weapons in the air. I do this every day, throughout the day when I have spare time. I do this for muscle memory and to train my body to move in certain ways. I consider this a foundation upon which training builds.
I'm currently carrying a Kusari Fundo (training version) to familiarize myself with the weapon. I try to take it with me everywhere, because flexible weapons are something I've got an interest in and I'm working on them heavily in my personal development.
Our training is 100% partner based, and in my training group we switch partners between every excercise. I find this to be the only way I enjoy martial arts. I've never been able to stick with an art for more than a month that isn't heavily partner based.
I'm currently carrying a Kusari Fundo (training version) to familiarize myself with the weapon. I try to take it with me everywhere, because flexible weapons are something I've got an interest in and I'm working on them heavily in my personal development.
Our training is 100% partner based, and in my training group we switch partners between every excercise. I find this to be the only way I enjoy martial arts. I've never been able to stick with an art for more than a month that isn't heavily partner based.
pete
Master Black Belt
digitalronin said:
you guys should try and get out a little more before making such assumptions... there is mediocrity in ALL arts, its up to the student to search out a level that he is willing to accept.Andrew Green said:
btw, i do not see tai chi listed on either of your profiles... on what basis are you making these sweeping generalizations?
pete
Keyword in there "USUALLY" Some might do Tai chi as a fighting art, but the vast majority of people that choose Tai Chi are doing it for the health benefits.pete said:
Eldritch Knight
Blue Belt
I agree with you, Pete. Tai chi is a very valid combative art, just like many others. As Andrew Green mentioned, it is usually not practiced that way. However, this does not inherently diminish tai chi in and of itself. There is "sparring" in tai chi (we call it push hands) and it can get pretty rough in tournaments, from what I've heard.
Getting back on topic, I much rather prefer contact training to non-contact. My first few years with MA were in a TKD school where I practiced nothing but shadow-techniques. Our sparring was tournament-style, so we tapped all of our attacks. I was under the impression that I could very easily make it a real technique if necessary, but shadow-kicking was so ingrained into me that when I practiced it on B.O.B., I would always tap it with my kicks instead of hitting through. That came as a huge surprise to me, and now I'm a huge advocate of training with contact.
Getting back on topic, I much rather prefer contact training to non-contact. My first few years with MA were in a TKD school where I practiced nothing but shadow-techniques. Our sparring was tournament-style, so we tapped all of our attacks. I was under the impression that I could very easily make it a real technique if necessary, but shadow-kicking was so ingrained into me that when I practiced it on B.O.B., I would always tap it with my kicks instead of hitting through. That came as a huge surprise to me, and now I'm a huge advocate of training with contact.
pete
Master Black Belt
since this is the "beginner's corner", i am taking a little extra care to put things into perspective. beginners may be coming here to get ideas on where they may want to go and invest their hard earned money and even more valuable time. broad generalizations and *USUALLY's* based on someone's rather limited view of an art in which they do not train should be clarified by one or more that have a different perspective, perhaps based on actual experience.Eldritch Knight said:
Eldritch Knight, support coming from you carries merit since you list in your profile tai chi training. one small point is not to confuse pushing hands (tui shou) with sparring (san shou). pushing hands is more of a exercise to develop skills introduced in solo practice.
and yes, back to topic... non-contact, pads or other devices, and partner work with contact are all used in the arts that i train. solo you learn to develop your motion and your root. pads, etc allow you to develop a sense of targeting and to release the power. partner work makes things come ALIVE, learn control over power, and apply distancing and timing. partner work with contact will put your solo practice to the test.
pete
IMHO, it goes something like this...digitalronin said:
Training with Pads or better yet Partners (making contact, not the "feel the wind" stuff) = Proper timing, proper distancing, and proper body dynamics (kamae and footwork).
Training with air (including training with partners in "feel the wind" mode) = basic form and simple kamae, no timing, no distance.
Shizen Shigoku
Purple Belt
I have a "feel the wind" technique that can knock most people out :fart:
1) No contact
pros: very safe most of the time (practicing a back-flip-kick with no partner around might not be very safe, e.g.); allows for lots of repetitions to improve accuracy of form and muscle memory; easier for the less-athletic to practice; no other people or equipment necessary - can be practiced any time; good warm-up for or review of contact exercises.
cons: lack of "feel" and feedback; hard to perfect priciples of distancing and timing; if used too much, can instill bad habits (repetition of error with no feedback to correct); can instill false sense of prowess - as in E.K.'s shadow kicking example. For all those reasons, non-contact training should be suplemented depending on practicioners' goals.
2) pad/bag/makiwara/etc. contact
pros: good feedback on accuracy (aim), and power; reasonably good for learning proper distancing; good exercise - for warm-up/cool-down/strength/stamina; pretty safe depending on method; many types of targets are free-standing/hanging and don't require a partner's assistance; fun and stress-relieving to hit stuff.
cons: "board no hit back" - hard to develop timing, and how to hit a moving target; over-use without coaching and supplementation with other methods can lead to lack of defensive practice (no need to keep your guard up*); can only practice certain techniques depending on shape of target (can't arm-lock a punching bag - can't put a focus mit in a head lock - can't kick out the knee of a speed bag hanging head-high - can't throw a makiwara . . . not without considerable effort anyway.
3) partner contact
pros: most closely resembles what one is training to do; allows multiple forms of feedback; allows practice of distancing, timing, balance-breaking, follow-through, defensive movements, feinting - pretty much every MA principle as human-to-human contact is what MAs are based on; get to feel both sides of an application (toru and ukeru).
cons: can be dangerous to both parties; safety precautions limit techniques; requires supervision; without proper coaching, can instill feeling of having to 'beat' the other person**
Just a few off the top of my head.
* When I used to use a hanging heavy bag, I would strap sticks of various lengths to it that would 'counter-attack' me as the bag rebounded, so I could practice blocks and evasions too.
** This is why when I do partner practice, I always include the technique 'run away' in my arsenal.
Considering all of the above, I think the best thing to do is incorporate all three methodologies, but what would be the optimum proportion of each?
Of course it depends on the MA style and personal goals, and the current level of training one is at, but I think looking at the pros and cons of each, we can come up with a good objective average range for those proportions.
Personally, my mix is 60-70% partner-based, 20-30% solo forms, and a minimal - but non-zero - amount of target hitting (I currently use palm trees).
For my BBT brethren and sistern, I call the above "ten-chi-jin of striking" - hit the sky; hit the earth; hit the man.
1) No contact
pros: very safe most of the time (practicing a back-flip-kick with no partner around might not be very safe, e.g.); allows for lots of repetitions to improve accuracy of form and muscle memory; easier for the less-athletic to practice; no other people or equipment necessary - can be practiced any time; good warm-up for or review of contact exercises.
cons: lack of "feel" and feedback; hard to perfect priciples of distancing and timing; if used too much, can instill bad habits (repetition of error with no feedback to correct); can instill false sense of prowess - as in E.K.'s shadow kicking example. For all those reasons, non-contact training should be suplemented depending on practicioners' goals.
2) pad/bag/makiwara/etc. contact
pros: good feedback on accuracy (aim), and power; reasonably good for learning proper distancing; good exercise - for warm-up/cool-down/strength/stamina; pretty safe depending on method; many types of targets are free-standing/hanging and don't require a partner's assistance; fun and stress-relieving to hit stuff.
cons: "board no hit back" - hard to develop timing, and how to hit a moving target; over-use without coaching and supplementation with other methods can lead to lack of defensive practice (no need to keep your guard up*); can only practice certain techniques depending on shape of target (can't arm-lock a punching bag - can't put a focus mit in a head lock - can't kick out the knee of a speed bag hanging head-high - can't throw a makiwara . . . not without considerable effort anyway.
3) partner contact
pros: most closely resembles what one is training to do; allows multiple forms of feedback; allows practice of distancing, timing, balance-breaking, follow-through, defensive movements, feinting - pretty much every MA principle as human-to-human contact is what MAs are based on; get to feel both sides of an application (toru and ukeru).
cons: can be dangerous to both parties; safety precautions limit techniques; requires supervision; without proper coaching, can instill feeling of having to 'beat' the other person**
Just a few off the top of my head.
* When I used to use a hanging heavy bag, I would strap sticks of various lengths to it that would 'counter-attack' me as the bag rebounded, so I could practice blocks and evasions too.
** This is why when I do partner practice, I always include the technique 'run away' in my arsenal.
Considering all of the above, I think the best thing to do is incorporate all three methodologies, but what would be the optimum proportion of each?
Of course it depends on the MA style and personal goals, and the current level of training one is at, but I think looking at the pros and cons of each, we can come up with a good objective average range for those proportions.
Personally, my mix is 60-70% partner-based, 20-30% solo forms, and a minimal - but non-zero - amount of target hitting (I currently use palm trees).
For my BBT brethren and sistern, I call the above "ten-chi-jin of striking" - hit the sky; hit the earth; hit the man.
shinbushi
Green Belt
I agree with the rest of the post but if you see how boxers and Muay Thai people do pad work you move around like you are sparring and the pad holder does hit back.Shizen Shigoku said:2) pad/bag/makiwara/etc. contact
cons: "board no hit back" - hard to develop timing, and how to hit a moving target; over-use without coaching and supplementation with other methods can lead to lack of defensive practice (no need to keep your guard up*); can only practice certain techniques depending on shape of target (can't arm-lock a punching bag - can't put a focus mit in a head lock - can't kick out the knee of a speed bag hanging head-high - can't throw a makiwara . . . not without considerable effort anyway.
C
chris...
Guest
the other also teaches you what to do when you miss, e.g. not overstiking or losing balance, rather then always landing the strike on a pad or partnerAndrew Green said:
Shizen Shigoku
Purple Belt
shinbushi: "I agree with the rest of the post but if you see how boxers and Muay Thai people do pad work you move around like you are sparring and the pad holder does hit back."
You're right, I did fail to consider that type of training, but I think that would be more of a combination pad&partner training method. I was trying to limit my descriptions to the individual methods taken by themselves.
I suppose another combination would be air&partner training - like in some styles of karate where they do 1- or 2-step sparring at high speed but pull strikes before they make contact.
Mixing the methods mixes the pros and cons too.
Bigshadow: "Somehow, I scents(ed) that was coming!"
I'm sure you did. I'm glad I was the first one to get that joke in, as I'm sure others thought of something similar. :lol:
chris...: "the other also teaches you what to do when you miss, e.g. not overstiking or losing balance, rather then always landing the strike on a pad or partner"
Good point, but depending on who you train with, if you miss while training with a partner, you'll learn some very valuable lessons.
And it is possible to miss, overstrike, or lose balance when striking inanimate targets.
I know what you mean though. Training with solo forms, one has to remain balanced at all times. This is exacerbated when practicing with large heavy weapons (think unloaded barbell for bo training).
You're right, I did fail to consider that type of training, but I think that would be more of a combination pad&partner training method. I was trying to limit my descriptions to the individual methods taken by themselves.
I suppose another combination would be air&partner training - like in some styles of karate where they do 1- or 2-step sparring at high speed but pull strikes before they make contact.
Mixing the methods mixes the pros and cons too.
Bigshadow: "Somehow, I scents(ed) that was coming!"
I'm sure you did. I'm glad I was the first one to get that joke in, as I'm sure others thought of something similar. :lol:
chris...: "the other also teaches you what to do when you miss, e.g. not overstiking or losing balance, rather then always landing the strike on a pad or partner"
Good point, but depending on who you train with, if you miss while training with a partner, you'll learn some very valuable lessons.
And it is possible to miss, overstrike, or lose balance when striking inanimate targets.
I know what you mean though. Training with solo forms, one has to remain balanced at all times. This is exacerbated when practicing with large heavy weapons (think unloaded barbell for bo training).
rutherford
Master Black Belt
shinbushi said:
I did a lot of this kind of training in JKD as well.
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