Two ways

[Manny]

Chating with my student I asked him to tell me about the diferences beetwen the class I teach him and the class my sambonim teach him. I've been of TKD dojang for a few weeks resting my back and I got a terrible cold.

My student told me sambonim makes his class more fitness oriented very cardio too much flexibilty work, and emphasises alot of high (head level) kicking. He told me that my class is not too cardio but more oriented to technike and martial art. We do some kicks,bloks,punches,hand techs and combos and I am focused in proper technike, you know good strong stances, well done blocks,strong punches, simple but very sound kicks and poomsae.

Well, what do you think I should change or improve? I asked him. My student told me to do some more kicking techs and a little more cardio and he really liked the martial art way I teach and would love definetively start with self defense techs. So I told him once I will feel right if my foot allow me we wre going to do more fast fancy kicks.

What do you think?

Manny

 

[KarateMomUSA]

What do you think?
Manny

I think that you can probably do both, or more of each. I would suggest that you can add cardio to your class training sessions that would give more of a "workout" by using more repetitions with the self defence techniques, aided by the use of opponents & targets.
Explanations can be given while they are breathing or resting in between drills or while holding the targets for their opponent/partner.
Having someone else count or a clock tick down, will free you to bark out commands & offer guidance & fine tuning.

 

[dancingalone]

My thought is that you can still teach a 'traditional' class with a goal towards cardio workouts. Just make sure there is a high amount of repetitions in whatever drill you are running.

If you are not breathing hard after 2 or 3 runs of a single form, you're not doing it right. Heck, even being thrown around on the mats takes energy to get up time and time again. It's not hard at all to make the heart pump and blood race.

 

[StudentCarl]

So I told him once I will feel right if my foot allow me we wre going to do more fast fancy kicks.

What do you think?

Manny

I think you're showing bias that may reduce the development of your student, and maybe limiting your own development to what is comfortable. To kick well takes much practice because of the flexibility, balance, setup, and technique involved. It sounds like you are dismissing more kicking as "fast fancy kicks". First off, slow kicks are worse than no kicks. Real kicks don't have to target the head, but if you work to kick higher you will have the flexibility and balance to kick at moderate heights very well when you're not stretched out or warmed up (like on the street). Speed and flexibility are essential. Further, what you dismiss as fancy is still useful to develop balance and coordination. I would not use a tornado kick on the street, but having practiced that skill improves my ability to throw a round kick because I'm practicing to have good posture and balance.

Another reason we emphasize kicking is based on the cliche "position before submission", a fundamental of fighting. With bad position and stance you cannot throw a technique with power because of poor body unity. And those who spar or have used their feet in a fight will tell you that much of footwork is to achieve position where you can strike effectively without getting hit first--something that's harder to do with feet than hands. Good footwork, stancework, and kicking practice train your body to achieve a good position to kick with power and without getting hit back. Without developing those skills, trying to kick is just choosing to fight standing on one leg...not recommended for your health.

Manny, I think the best thing to do is talk more with your sabum about class focus and content. With all respect to your experience, at your rank I'm not sure you should be deciding the curriculum balance.

 

[dancingalone]

I think you're showing bias that may reduce the development of your student, and maybe limiting your own development to what is comfortable.

I didn't get the impression that this student was solely taking Manny's class. It sounded like he took both, so Manny's class actually serves to balance things out with a focus on hand techniques, stances, and forms.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Chating with my student I asked him to tell me about the diferences beetwen the class I teach him and the class my sambonim teach him. I've been of TKD dojang for a few weeks resting my back and I got a terrible cold.

My student told me sambonim makes his class more fitness oriented very cardio too much flexibilty work, and emphasises alot of high (head level) kicking. He told me that my class is not too cardio but more oriented to technike and martial art. We do some kicks,bloks,punches,hand techs and combos and I am focused in proper technike, you know good strong stances, well done blocks,strong punches, simple but very sound kicks and poomsae.

Well, what do you think I should change or improve? I asked him. My student told me to do some more kicking techs and a little more cardio and he really liked the martial art way I teach and would love definetively start with self defense techs. So I told him once I will feel right if my foot allow me we wre going to do more fast fancy kicks.

What do you think?

Manny

Sounds like one way with multiple facets. Your sabeom teaches a class that is more fitness oriented very cardio too much flexibilty work, and emphasises alot of high (head level) kicking.

You teach a class that is more technique oriented and focusing on good strong stances, well done blocks, strong punches, simple but very sound kicks and poomsae.

But it is all under one roof. Every instructor focuses on different parts of the art. The benefit of having multiple instructors is that each one offers something that the other does not, allowing students to take classes from each and get a much more comprehensive package.

Daniel

 

[Manny]

I think you're showing bias that may reduce the development of your student, and maybe limiting your own development to what is comfortable. To kick well takes much practice because of the flexibility, balance, setup, and technique involved. It sounds like you are dismissing more kicking as "fast fancy kicks". First off, slow kicks are worse than no kicks. Real kicks don't have to target the head, but if you work to kick higher you will have the flexibility and balance to kick at moderate heights very well when you're not stretched out or warmed up (like on the street). Speed and flexibility are essential. Further, what you dismiss as fancy is still useful to develop balance and coordination. I would not use a tornado kick on the street, but having practiced that skill improves my ability to throw a round kick because I'm practicing to have good posture and balance.

Another reason we emphasize kicking is based on the cliche "position before submission", a fundamental of fighting. With bad position and stance you cannot throw a technique with power because of poor body unity. And those who spar or have used their feet in a fight will tell you that much of footwork is to achieve position where you can strike effectively without getting hit first--something that's harder to do with feet than hands. Good footwork, stancework, and kicking practice train your body to achieve a good position to kick with power and without getting hit back. Without developing those skills, trying to kick is just choosing to fight standing on one leg...not recommended for your health.

Manny, I think the best thing to do is talk more with your sabum about class focus and content. With all respect to your experience, at your rank I'm not sure you should be deciding the curriculum balance.

Thank you, your critics are good ones, yes I will speak with my sambonim.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

I didn't get the impression that this student was solely taking Manny's class. It sounded like he took both, so Manny's class actually serves to balance things out with a focus on hand techniques, stances, and forms.

I can see your interpretation too. I read it as the master teaching in place of Manny while Manny was sick and 'out for a few weeks'.

 

[Manny]

I didn't get the impression that this student was solely taking Manny's class. It sounded like he took both, so Manny's class actually serves to balance things out with a focus on hand techniques, stances, and forms.

Dancing alone is right. Arthur is a student from Hwarang Tae Kwon Do, sambonim asked me to take charge of the last class (8:30-9:30 pm) but he told me he will teach this class once in a while to check things. The times I won't go to dojang sambonim will take charge, infact this has been hapening for 3 weeks because my back problem.

I want to star training again starting in febraury, so I will go to the black belt calss and then teach my class, I hope foot will aloow me, so maybe my student and I can be in the advanced class and when this class is over we can do the self defense techs poomsae,etc,etc. I don't want to leave training I have things to learn (like Taeback) and want to exrcise and keep loosing weight.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Manny, thanks for clarifying. My concern was that if you go too far in the emphasis on stances, forms and hand technique with little kicking, you may be teaching karate and not Taekwondo. If your master is the one who supplies the balance in the curriculum, that suggests your class might need to rebalance a little. I hope your health continues to improve so you can participate in all of the classes you want to.

Looking back at your original question, I'm finding value in working on balance in transition between techniques. Many people fall into stances after kicking instead of controlling their kick and then stepping under control. The balance change also affects the timing and power of hand techniques. Both foot angle and whether weight is on the heel or the ball are worth watching as they can weaken any technique. I like activities that force you to change direction on each technique, as it forces you to adjust footwork and stance to generate power correctly. I hope some of that is helpful.

 

[dancingalone]

My concern was that if you go too far in the emphasis on stances, forms and hand technique with little kicking, you may be teaching karate and not Taekwondo.

I am not trying to nitpick you or single you out, Carl, but karate is not merely TKD with little kicking. It's a disservice to karate to use this type of comparison.

 

[StudentCarl]

Dancingalone, point taken. I mean no offense to karate and can see how my comment is off-base. My point was that it seemed to me that Manny was reducing the role of kicking, which I see as a core element of Taekwondo. Maybe it would have been better to call the result Taekwondo-lite.

 

[Manny]

Dancingalone, point taken. I mean no offense to karate and can see how my comment is off-base. My point was that it seemed to me that Manny was reducing the role of kicking, which I see as a core element of Taekwondo. Maybe it would have been better to call the result Taekwondo-lite.

A regular class (my class) is 5-10 minutes joging, then warm up/flexibility/elasticity work (around 20 minutes), then we do basic techs, stances,blocks with counter (ogul maki,are maki,yop maki,montong maki,han sonnal makki,sonal makki) regulary a punch, then we do kicking, ap chagui,tolya chagui,yop chagui, an chagui/bakat chagui, if there is time we practice kicho 1, kicho 2 and now kicho 3, we finish class with crunches.

I am going to start teaching one step sparring and I will start with chagi deryon too.

Is something missing?

A regular class with sambonim is about kicking most of the time and poomsae but not to much about stances,blocks,hand techs,etc.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Just curius, if in the class I don't tecah kicking techs then there is no TKD? It could be one night I will tech defenses/blocks with counters, or maybe I will stress on stances or maybe I would tech poomsae only,if this is it, then is no TKD? Yes maybe next class will be kickin only, but if some classes no kicking then is not TKD?

TKD is more than just kickin to me, TKD has to be a mixup of several things like poomsae,ho si sul, and a pletora of technikes but not only kicking.

Maybe I am wrong but every single class has to have kicking only?

Manny

 

[puunui]

If you are not breathing hard after 2 or 3 runs of a single form, you're not doing it right.

That is exactly what I avoid when doing forms. I try to do my forms smoothly and work mainly on my "form".

 

[StudentCarl]

Is something missing?

A regular class with sambonim is about kicking most of the time and poomsae but not to much about stances,blocks,hand techs,etc.

Manny

I think all of the things you mention are important. This leads to a valuable discussion about what should be the content of a class. Personally, I think there needs to be work on both hand and foot striking techniques, stances, movement, blocking, and of course combining those, something built in to poomsae. Because I think most students are training 2-3 times a week, I think it's probably best practice to do some of all of those in every class just to reinforce correct technique and spread out the repetitions.

Where I study we do all in every class, though there may be a further focus on one particular technique--its variety, applications, and uses in combinations.

It sounds like you at least have a different view than your sabumnim about what is the best balance in the curriculum. Without challenging him, have you ever sought an explanation for his reasoning of what's important to do in the curriculum? As your senior, it would be interesting to know why he does it the way he does...if he's willing to share that and isn't offended that you ask.

 

[leadleg]

A regular class (my class) is 5-10 minutes joging, then warm up/flexibility/elasticity work (around 20 minutes), then we do basic techs, stances,blocks with counter (ogul maki,are maki,yop maki,montong maki,han sonnal makki,sonal makki) regulary a punch, then we do kicking, ap chagui,tolya chagui,yop chagui, an chagui/bakat chagui, if there is time we practice kicho 1, kicho 2 and now kicho 3, we finish class with crunches.

I am going to start teaching one step sparring and I will start with chagi deryon too.

Is something missing?

A regular class with sambonim is about kicking most of the time and poomsae but not to much about stances,blocks,hand techs,etc.

Manny

I have always thought that doing the basics in the poomse was better than say, horse stance or other line drills as you are moving while performing.
I do not know your instructor of course but I would think if he has been teaching for awhile and he is the one who is promoting his students he would know what they need to work on.
I would think you could ask him if he likes the way you are teaching your version of self defense, he does watch your class while you are teaching,I hope. If so I think you must have an OK from him,already.
The class you are explaining above sounds like a beginners class, am I correct?

 

[bluewaveschool]

I'm breathing hard after running through ALL of my forms, but that's because I'm not yet in the shape I want to be in. That's also 10 forms for me while starting to work on the 11th that I never learned after my last test.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think its great that you are doing a class like this Manny, it sounds like the type of stuff I love doing. In saying that though, I do have a healthy respect for "high fancy kicks", I dont think they can be the entire focus but they are very important to learn. Once I started learning to see kicks like a 'jump spinning hook' as more of a training tool rather than an actual kick Im going to use in self defence it took on a whole new meaning learning these kicks. My kicking in general, my posture, my core strength, my balance, my speed and confidence have all been enhanced by learning high kicks. I dont think fancy high kicks should be a large part of the overall curriculum but in moderation there is heaps to learn from them. Basically see them as 'kicking drills' rather than kicks.

 

[Manny]

I have always thought that doing the basics in the poomse was better than say, horse stance or other line drills as you are moving while performing.
I do not know your instructor of course but I would think if he has been teaching for awhile and he is the one who is promoting his students he would know what they need to work on.
I would think you could ask him if he likes the way you are teaching your version of self defense, he does watch your class while you are teaching,I hope. If so I think you must have an OK from him,already.
The class you are explaining above sounds like a beginners class, am I correct?

Maybe I am a nut guy about performing the techs the best way possible and this can be achieved only with parctice/correction + practice/correction+practice/correction, poomse is a great way of practicing the techs involved in TKD. My instructor has about 35 years of experience and teching TKD is a very resptected sambonim in the Fdereacion mexicana de TKD, hes one of the top 5 international referees my country has, and knows his bussiness, he does not promote his/her students directly, I mean he alwasy invite another sambonim to test us and he only conduts the examninatios/promotions.
My sambonim does not watch while I am teaching, but not sure I am to devoted to teach that I really don't know if he is watching.

Yes the class I teach is male beginer's class.

Manny