Turning Kick in Taegeuk 6

[msmitht]

REALLY?As I said in previous posts, I have been to 3 FIC including one in Korea at the kkw and have confirmed with a poomsae IR that the instep is the correct striking surface. That is both KKW and WTF confirming the same thing. Just because your instructor, a video or a post said that they teach it right doesn't mean that they were taught current standards. I am right on this one.

 

[SJON]

Ah! An opportunity to save myself some typing by merely manipulating somebody else's post (sorry, Jaeimseu) while neatly summing up my point of view:

The "correct" way to perform techniques [...] doesn't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard.

I'm still no nearer to understanding the new "ball of foot forward poke" method of round kicking. I think that's the interesting point here, i.e. the trajectory and target, rather than whether the instep or the ball of the foot makes a better striking surface.

I asked earlier, but no harm in insisting: Can anyone supply a video of a Taekkyon round kick?

Cheers,

Simon

 

[chrispillertkd]

This is a link to a couple of examples of Taekkyon roundhouse kicks. In both instances the instep is used. Check 0:24-0:33 and 0:40-0:51 to see the kicks at normal speed and slow motion.

Pax,

Chris

 

[SJON]

Thanks! That's really interesting. Even though contact is with the instep (although the first one is borderline) the trajectory is more similar to the new ball-of-foot-forward variation we've been discussing, i.e. a more frontal, shallower arc than the traditional round kick.

I still think this is an attempt to adapt aspects of Karate-based form technique to closer resemble the sport version.

Then there's this other issue of "if you do Kukki TKD and the KKW says it is now done this way, then this is the correct way to do it, because that's what the KKW says and you do Kukki TKD, etc. etc.". I notice that this happens even when the KKW does not offer a convincing explanation for a change, even when the change seems to reduce the technique's effectiveness. I really don't get this "conform to KKW standards at all costs" thing. Is there a vault in the KKW full of files with embarrassing photos of its international instructors?

I wonder what it would take for people to start questioning this. A new mandate stating that all front punches must be performed with the little finger extended forwards towards the opponent, perhaps?

I would like to make clear that this is categorically not a dig at Andy, who takes the trouble to engage in pleasant, well-informed conversation on matters such as this, which is something I very much appreciate.

Best regards,

Simon

 

[chrispillertkd]

I didn't really see that much similarity between the KKW turning kick in Taegeuk 6 and the Taekkyon kick, to be honest. The first example of the Taekkyon kick, however, looked almost identical to the turning kick I first learned in Taekwon-Do, circa 1981. My instructors were under a Chang Moo Kwan master and we chambered and executed the turning kick just like the one found at 0:24-0:33 in the video I posted. While their master was a Chang Moo Kwan member he wasn't involved with the KKW but was an ITF member, although the ITF way of performing a turning kick is somewhat different from how we were taught then.

I will say that the two examples of the kick in the Taekkyon video were performed with different trajectories and I don't know if they are classified as different kicks or if the first one is simply using the quick change in the kick's direction as a feint to lower the opponent's guard.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Archtkd]

REALLY?As I said in previous posts, I have been to 3 FIC including one in Korea at the kkw and have confirmed with a poomsae IR that the instep is the correct striking surface. That is both KKW and WTF confirming the same thing. Just because your instructor, a video or a post said that they teach it right doesn't mean that they were taught current standards. I am right on this one.

Sir: I think both ball and instep are being used at elite levels of WTF competition. I wonder what the point deduction would be if a judge favored the instep over the ball - minor .1 or serious error .3? Here are some examples from the world championships:

Gold Medalist Moon Su Ji Kang of Korea – 1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep, while performing Taegu Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage if competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships. I had to stop and replay tape several times to catch the kick:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c18370

Gold Medalist Moon Kwon Park of Korea – 2nd Male Senior Division. He kicks roundhouse with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c18370

Gold Medalist Yu Jin Kang of Korea – 1st Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse kick with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competion at the 2008 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c1739

Gold Medalist Mohammad Taghi Hatami Marbin of Iran - 2nd Senior Mald Division. He kicks roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competition at the 2009 World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c1739

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing. Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?

 

[andyjeffries]

Then there's this other issue of "if you do Kukki TKD and the KKW says it is now done this way, then this is the correct way to do it, because that's what the KKW says and you do Kukki TKD, etc. etc.". I notice that this happens even when the KKW does not offer a convincing explanation for a change, even when the change seems to reduce the technique's effectiveness. I really don't get this "conform to KKW standards at all costs" thing. Is there a vault in the KKW full of files with embarrassing photos of its international instructors?

I wonder what it would take for people to start questioning this. A new mandate stating that all front punches must be performed with the little finger extended forwards towards the opponent, perhaps?

To be honest Simon, I think you view poomsae differently to 99% of Taekwondoin.

As I understand it, you look for hidden applications in the poomsae, whereas I understand the creaters of the poomsae have said no such hidden applications were intended. So while I see what you are doing as an interesting exercise, for me it's not the official position of the Kukkiwon and hence I don't focus on that in my training. I prefer to get as close to the Kukkiwon view of Taekwondo as I can, otherwise what I am teaching is "Jeffries Taekwondo" rather than "Kukkiwon Taekwondo" and I don't consider myself anywhere near senior enough to decide that what my seniors and grandmasters are doing is wrong and I know better.

I view poomsae as a nice vehicle for improving balance, physical control, health and strength. It's not a method of training effective techniques to be performed exactly as they are done in the pattern in a self-defence situation. So I view poomsae as a mental exercise in conformance to a specified technical description and giving the other physical benefits above, but if the techniques aren't effective, I'm OK with that. For example, performing the slow punch to the face in Taegeuk pal-jang - surely punching slowly would never have been intended to be a decent self defence technique?

We do hosinsul, step-sparring, breaking and olympic-style sparring to practice combat techniques.

I would like to make clear that this is categorically not a dig at Andy, who takes the trouble to engage in pleasant, well-informed conversation on matters such as this, which is something I very much appreciate.

No worries, I didn't take it as such (I believe you're a Brit as well, we're pretty thick skinned)

 

[Archtkd]

I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing. Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?

Sorry about that -- Will try again.

 

[Archtkd]

I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing. Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?

Try this:

Gold Medalist Su Ji Kang of Korea – 1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep (I had to pause and study tape several times to find this), while performing Taegug Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competition at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...lCVRhZWd1ZWsgNgABAQEPcDFjMTgzNzBtMTg3OTQ3AAAA


Gold Medalist Moon Kwon Park of Korea – 2nd Male Senior Division. He kicks roundhouse with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...Ld29uIFBhcmsAAQEBD3AxYzE4MzcwbTE4NjcwNAAAAA==


Gold Medalist Yu Jin Kang of Korea – 1st Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse kick with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competion at the 2008 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...LWXUgamluIEthbmcAAQEBDXAxYzE3MzltMTYxNzcAAAA=


Gold Medalist Mohammad Taghi Hatami Marbin of Iran - 2nd Senior Mald Division. He kicks roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competition at the 2008 World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...0YW1pIE1hcmJpbmkAAQEBDXAxYzE3MzltMTU5MDQAAAA=

 

[RTKDCMB]

Mathematics has a single answer

Not always true.

 

[SJON]

Hi Andy.

To be honest Simon, I think you view poomsae differently to 99% of Taekwondoin.

No doubt about that.

As I understand it, you look for hidden applications in the poomsae

Not exactly. "Hidden applications" sounds too mysterious and secretive. I just like to see what happens when I perform the movements at less than arm's length from the opponent and do some things that are a matter of historical record (within TSD/KSD/TKD), such as using blocks to strike, and grabbing with the non-blocking/striking hand. Anyway, pattern application is only about 20% of my syllabus in terms of class time.

I understand the creaters of the poomsae have said no such hidden applications were intended.

I've heard second hand that Park Hae Man has said this but (a) I don't know if it's true that he said that, and (b) GM Park is hardly going to come out 40 years later and go against the party line, is he?

So while I see what you are doing as an interesting exercise, for me it's not the official position of the Kukkiwon and hence I don't focus on that in my training. I prefer to get as close to the Kukkiwon view of Taekwondo as I can, otherwise what I am teaching is "Jeffries Taekwondo" rather than "Kukkiwon Taekwondo"

Sounds fine to me. That's one of several reasons why I don't say I teach Kukki TKD.

I don't consider myself anywhere near senior enough to decide that what my seniors and grandmasters are doing is wrong and I know better.

Not what I'm saying at all. Perish the thought. I think the patterns were probably composed using a particular set of criteria, but were superseded for a variety of reasons by other teaching methods and were therefore assigned a different role. As for "my seniors and grandmasters", call me a rebel and a heretic, but I just don't see myself as part of that kind of hierarchical structure any more than an Apple user considers Steve Jobs his senior or a doctor considers Alexander Fleming his grandmaster.

I view poomsae as a nice vehicle for improving balance, physical control, health and strength. It's not a method of training effective techniques to be performed exactly as they are done in the pattern in a self-defence situation. So I view poomsae as a mental exercise in conformance to a specified technical description and giving the other physical benefits above, but if the techniques aren't effective, I'm OK with that. For example, performing the slow punch to the face in Taegeuk pal-jang - surely punching slowly would never have been intended to be a decent self defence technique?We do hosinsul, step-sparring, breaking and olympic-style sparring to practice combat techniques.

Sounds like a perfectly good method to me. No idea why that particular punch is done slow, other than perhaps to indicate that it is possibly the most dangerous way to punch (for the recipient).

No worries, I didn't take it as such (I believe you're a Brit as well, we're pretty thick skinned)

I am indeed.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Try this:

Gold Medalist Su Ji Kang of Korea – 1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep (I had to pause and study tape several times to find this), while performing Taegug Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competition at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...lCVRhZWd1ZWsgNgABAQEPcDFjMTgzNzBtMTg3OTQ3AAAA

Thanks for the links. I had to look at the frames as well for the video above, although my conclusion is that she is kicking with the ball of the foot, since the toes are pulled back. It's really hard to say though!

 

[WaterGal]

That's a very interesting point. I always thought of WTF as sparring competition, and Kukkiwon as the BB organisation. But when you have a poomsae competition, you are doing KKW forms in a WTF competition. I hadn't thought of the nuance that the 2 organisations may have different views on the "correct" or "preferred" way for a pattern.

Me neither. That's very interesting, and something for me to think and learn about as we've got more students interested in competing.

 

[Archtkd]

Thanks for the links. I had to look at the frames as well for the video above, although my conclusion is that she is kicking with the ball of the foot, since the toes are pulled back. It's really hard to say though!

Can you imagine how hard ii would be for a poomsae judge to decide whether that kick was instep or ball of the foot, while judging live action without the benefit of video playback. If only insteps where acceptable, the judge would have to deduct points for kicking with the ball, or vice versa if only the ball of foot was acceptable. And the question still remains whether that would be considered a minor or major error, as far as point deductions are concerned.