Words eaten - roundhouse kick with ball of the foot

[Badhabits]

i wear mostly steel toe'd footwear on a daily basis due to our line of work. Practicing the ball of the foot roundhouse is good for this type of footwear. You can't really bend the end of a steel toe'd boot or shoe back far enough for a ball of foot kick, even if your body pulls the toes back automatically it still results in a nasty steel reinforced toe pointing kick to whatever you hit.

 

[HighKick]

i wear mostly steel toe'd footwear on a daily basis due to our line of work. Practicing the ball of the foot roundhouse is good for this type of footwear. You can't really bend the end of a steel toe'd boot or shoe back far enough for a ball of foot kick, even if your body pulls the toes back automatically it still results in a nasty steel reinforced toe pointing kick to whatever you hit.

That would be a Devasting kick!!!

 

[Badhabits]

Judging from practicing in steel toe on old pieces of lumber and such, it would be a bad day for the guy who caught a roundhouse to the thigh!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

On another note for use of the ball of the foot or really the toes with foot gear or shoes - This was something Bill Superfoot Wallace used to go around my house (At a seminar) and kick me in the head when I thought my my guard protected me . Took me a while to figure out he keeps the foot bent at 90 degrees and in sparring for this kick we would usually point the toes to kick with instep. His foot position coupled with extra distance the foot protection gave him allowed that foot to go a good 8" or so past my rear hand guard.

This can also be used to sink in body kicks to vulnerable spots like the solar plexus or kidneys past a tight guard.

I don't have the flexibility in my toes to pull them back safely for roundhouse kicks barefoot, but I'm a big fan of kicking with the toes while wearing shoes.

 

[isshinryuronin]

As for traditional karate there’s the traditional katas as reference of technique curriculum, closest to a roundhouse kick is the - mikazuki keri/ crescent kick - the sole of the foot is what hits the target

Aside from both coming in from the side angle, they are different in every other way: leg position, contact point, biomechanics and usage.

I did point out “traditional” karate, the ones that came out from Okinawa that basically were kata based.

I think you have this backwards. Technique is not based on kata, kata is based on technique.

The range is shorter in a roundhouse kick, because the foot is bent

I did not express my point clearly. The effective linear range, the distance between target and kicker allowing the kick to land, is not shorter, but I think (looking at my foot) about the same. My intended point has more to do with effective speed. I think the quote below is on the right track. I'll explain the best I can.

I believe what @isshinryuronin is trying to point out is that when using the ball of the foot with the circular motion of a roundhouse kick there is a greater chance of 'penetration'. This is the 'longer' range being referred to.

In an instep/shin kick, the foot is pointed in the same direction as the leg, so the entire structure is on one line. This means that if the kicking leg travels a 70-degree arc, so does the striking part (shin/instep). But because in the ball kick the foot is extended towards the opponent on a 90-degree angle, the leg only needs to travel 65 degrees before the extended striking part makes contact. The required leg motion is shorter. This is what I meant in my point #1. This also means contact will be made sooner.

Disagree that it's wise to block the ankle.

I never made this claim. Usually better to block as far up the limb as possible. I did say that if the ball kick is blocked around the ankle area (as they usually are) and close into the opponent's body, since the foot is on an angle, it can "hook" in and still make contact past the point of the block. This is not true with the other kick - you block the ankle/shin, you have blocked contact.

The quad muscle also plays a big factor in the latter part of the kick.

This is certainly true in Japanese and Korean versions as their kicks have a thrusting component (laying into the kick). The classic Okinawan kicks are generally the snapping variety and so don't depend on this past the initial launching.

the mawashi-keri(roundhouse kick) came with the Japanized karate, so a “quite recent” experimental development inspired from foreign lands.

While it's true that roundhouse kicks aren't really seen in old traditional kata (few kicks as a whole, really) I have seen an old video of Funakoshi (1930's) doing a very strong mid-level roundhouse. I believe this is before karate was "Japanized," beyond the traditional way he preferred. So, I am not swayed that this kick is a late development, thinking it was around earlier but not highlighted. This is my current opinion. Certainly, competition that began in the late '30's in Japan led to its popularization throughout the following decades.

 

[HighKick]

This can also be used to sink in body kicks to vulnerable spots like the solar plexus or kidneys past a tight guard.

I don't have the flexibility in my toes to pull them back safely for roundhouse kicks barefoot, but I'm a big fan of kicking with the toes while wearing shoes.

It has been a long while, but I have broken 5-boards with a ball of the foot roundhouse. As earlier mentioned, the angle relative to the boards has to change compared to a softer target because of the bent toes.
The real key that many people miss, at least in the beginning, is to hit with the ball of the foot, not the big toe.

 

[Badhabits]

Breaking suspended boards with a roundhouse is fun.

 

[Same Trick]

Aside from both coming in from the side angle, they are different in every other way: leg position, contact point, biomechanics and usage.

I think you have this backwards. Technique is not based on kata, kata is based on technique.



While it's true that roundhouse kicks aren't really seen in old traditional kata (few kicks as a whole, really) I have seen an old video of Funakoshi (1930's) doing a very strong mid-level roundhouse. I believe this is before karate was "Japanized," beyond the traditional way he preferred. So, I am not swayed that this kick is a late development, thinking it was around earlier but not highlighted. This is my current opinion. Certainly, competition that began in the late '30's in Japan led to its popularization throughout the following decades.

Mmm, Funakoshi moved to Japan 1922.

There’s a 30 min video I found on the Chinese video tubes claimed to be from 1924, in it one already see the characteristic low and wide and big postures/stances of Shotokan, kata Enpi and Jitte are performed several times(versions are not found in Okinawan karate).
Kicks in kata Heian yondan, Kanku-dai and Nijushiho are yoko-keri rather than Mae-keri(side kick/front-kick).
Sanbon-kumite(three step sparring) is often shown.
So the “japanization/mainlandization” seems being in full swing already in 1924.

Also in the vid there’s a man in tanga demonstrating front, side, crescent and round kick- it’s not Funakoshi, but there’s a man that surely looks like Gichin Funakoshi demonstrating the three Telkki(naihanchi) Katas also in wide low stance, already then nicely shotokan’ish.

I’ll as for the sake to somewhat keep to the topic - The 1024 vid show no board breaking, just kata, kihon and kumite and a little makiwara hitting

 

[Fungus]

he had the board at a 45-degree angle instead of perpendicular to him. That gave his toes enough clearance to avoid injury.

I also do NOT have overly flexible toes, even for me I manage to pull this off in sparring. I use it sparsely as worst case is hitting an elbow with your toes. It is not my favourite, and it's a precision kick more than the devastating follow through shin roundhouse kick.

But just last week i hit the opponent with this chusoku roundhouse. I also do it when the opponen is 45 degrees, and the ideal striking point is the lower ribs, as a counter to when the opponent is just about to strike, then the ribs are exposed. I often do it at an angle so it's like a hybrid of mawashi geri and front kick. It's painful, even with moderate energy transfer. i also train this on the heavy bag, and during the last year I have decent power, but as the tose are sensitive, I don't have enough control and confidence in my left foot to use it there in sparring, I mainly to this only with my dominant leg.

 

[HighKick]

I also do NOT have overly flexible toes, even for me I manage to pull this off in sparring. I use it sparsely as worst case is hitting an elbow with your toes. It is not my favourite, and it's a precision kick more than the devastating follow through shin roundhouse kick.

But just last week i hit the opponent with this chusoku roundhouse. I also do it when the opponent is 45 degrees, and the ideal striking point is the lower ribs, as a counter to when the opponent is just about to strike, then the ribs are exposed. I often do it at an angle so it's like a hybrid of mawashi geri and front kick. It's painful, even with moderate energy transfer. i also train this on the heavy bag, and during the last year I have decent power, but as the tose are sensitive, I don't have enough control and confidence in my left foot to use it there in sparring, I mainly to this only with my dominant leg.

I mentioned 'body English' in an earlier post. Think of people like Bill Wallace who can flick their leg/foot to head level easier than the average person can bend a finger and deliver a Hard kick. This is a defining difference in the value of kicks in general and particularly rotational kicks like a roundhouse that (usually) requires more torsional body control and effort.

Rotational kicks like the roundhouse are Such dynamic kicks with so many variables and options it is hard to talk about them in specifics at times. In a matter of seconds upon thinking about this post, I counted at least 20 different viable, usable, versions of a roundhouse kick. It can make training application harder to teach and grasp without Lots of sparring/application practice. Learning the how/when/why of the various kick options AND having the ability of effectively using all the variations of any kick is a challenge indeed.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Mmm, Funakoshi moved to Japan 1922.

There’s a 30 min video I found on the Chinese video tubes claimed to be from 1924, in it one already see the characteristic low and wide and big postures/stances of Shotokan, kata Enpi and Jitte are performed several times(versions are not found in Okinawan karate).
Kicks in kata Heian yondan, Kanku-dai and Nijushiho are yoko-keri rather than Mae-keri(side kick/front-kick).
Sanbon-kumite(three step sparring) is often shown.
So the “japanization/mainlandization” seems being in full swing already in 1924.

Also in the vid there’s a man in tanga demonstrating front, side, crescent and round kick- it’s not Funakoshi, but there’s a man that surely looks like Gichin Funakoshi demonstrating the three Telkki(naihanchi) Katas also in wide low stance, already then nicely shotokan’ish.

I’ll as for the sake to somewhat keep to the topic - The 1024 vid show no board breaking, just kata, kihon and kumite and a little makiwara hitting

 

[isshinryuronin]

Mmm, Funakoshi moved to Japan 1922.

There’s a 30 min video I found on the Chinese video tubes claimed to be from 1924, in it one already see the characteristic low and wide and big postures/stances of Shotokan, kata Enpi and Jitte are performed several times(versions are not found in Okinawan karate).
Kicks in kata Heian yondan, Kanku-dai and Nijushiho are yoko-keri rather than Mae-keri(side kick/front-kick).
Sanbon-kumite(three step sparring) is often shown.
So the “japanization/mainlandization” seems being in full swing already in 1924.

Also in the vid there’s a man in tanga demonstrating front, side, crescent and round kick- it’s not Funakoshi, but there’s a man that surely looks like Gichin Funakoshi demonstrating the three Telkki(naihanchi) Katas also in wide low stance, already then nicely shotokan’ish.

I’ll as for the sake to somewhat keep to the topic - The 1024 vid show no board breaking, just kata, kihon and kumite and a little makiwara hitting

Saw the video. Yes, the stances are deeper than typically found in Okinawa, especially in Funakoshi's tekki, compared to most Okinawan naihanchi versions. So, it does seem he had begun to modify the art's look right from the start in the 1920's. IMO, many of the other techniques shown still retain some Okinawan flavor in their agility, "springiness" and general form.

(Since Funakoshi initiated the physical modification of the Okinawan style in Japan, it may be more accurate to say the 1920's was the time of "Funakoshi-ization" of karate there and the 1930's onward the time of Japanization as the JKA took control over the art.)

Pinan 3 predating Funakoshi's "heians" does have crescent kicks, which like roundhouse kicks, and to some extent sidekicks (other than to the knees) are seldom seen. Even though some moves may not be part of kata or kihon it doesn't mean they were not part of the Okinawan toolbag. We don't really know a lot of how early karate looked. I find it hard to believe some sort of close-range angled (roundhouse) kick did not exist.

But the most important "reveal" of that old video has to be the tanga, the traditional loincloth (thong). You'd have to learn how to fight if you wore that around town !

 

[Same Trick]

Saw the video. Yes, the stances are deeper than typically found in Okinawa, especially in Funakoshi's tekki, compared to most Okinawan naihanchi versions. So, it does seem he had begun to modify the art's look right from the start in the 1920's. IMO, many of the other techniques shown still retain some Okinawan flavor in their agility, "springiness" and general form.

(Since Funakoshi initiated the physical modification of the Okinawan style in Japan, it may be more accurate to say the 1920's was the time of "Funakoshi-ization" of karate there and the 1930's onward the time of Japanization as the JKA took control over the art.)

Pinan 3 predating Funakoshi's "heians" does have crescent kicks, which like roundhouse kicks, and to some extent sidekicks (other than to the knees) are seldom seen. Even though some moves may not be part of kata or kihon it doesn't mean they were not part of the Okinawan toolbag. We don't really know a lot of how early karate looked. I find it hard to believe some sort of close-range angled (roundhouse) kick did not exist.

But the most important "reveal" of that old video has to be the tanga, the traditional loincloth (thong). You'd have to learn how to fight if you wore that around town !

What surprised me in that vid apart from Funakoshis excellent Tekki kata performance was their access to some nice swimming pool the karatekas seem to lax and play in after dojo training, also they seem to be rowing boats as part of their training ?
Anyway, the crescent kick vs roundhouse, in traditional Chinese wushu crescent kicks seem be favored, I’ve not seen so far any traditional CMA source that point to the roundhouse kick, the crescent kick is still strongly part of the rigorously practiced basics of modern wushu, so since traditional Okinawan karate was heavily based on CMA i guess there was no roundhouse kick in the Okinawan karate curriculum, and as I pointed out previously traditional kata doesn’t have it, and the katas I believe can be seen as kind of textbooks on the curriculum of techniques that was practiced

 

[isshinryuronin]

Anyway, the crescent kick vs roundhouse, in traditional Chinese wushu crescent kicks seem be favored, I’ve not seen so far any traditional CMA source that point to the roundhouse kick, the crescent kick is still strongly part of the rigorously practiced basics of modern wushu, so since traditional Okinawan karate was heavily based on CMA i guess there was no roundhouse kick in the Okinawan karate curriculum, and as I pointed out previously traditional kata doesn’t have it, and the katas I believe can be seen as kind of textbooks on the curriculum of techniques that was practiced

I think what is now popularly called wushu is mostly based on northern CMA which put more stress on longer range attacks like kicks. Karate was mostly influenced by southern CMA from the Fujian area which stresses shorter range hand attacks. The Bubishi illustrates 47 counters against various attacks and none of these counters utilize kicks, although a few counters to kicks by the opponent are shown.

So, while it is widely agreed early karate was mostly hand based along with low side/oblique kicks to the knee and front kicks to the lower torso, other kicks seem to be missing from the record. High kicks were purposely left out as they put one's jewels at risk. Turning kicks as well - turning one's back to the opponent was considered poor strategy in potentially lethal combat.

But low, close range roundhouse kicks? They seem effective and safe from those dangers. A long shot, unfounded imaginative guess is most Okinawan martial artists up to the latter 1800's were professional warriors and may have had some armor or weaponry that made such a kick awkward to do? Another unlikely reason is that it was a secret technique. It's a mystery to me that no early karate master knew of or invented such a kick, or if they did, why is it not included old kata or kihon? Too bad no one 100 years ago bothered to ask a sensei who might have had the answer.

 

[Same Trick]

I think what is now popularly called wushu is mostly based on northern CMA which put more stress on longer range attacks like kicks. Karate was mostly influenced by southern CMA from the Fujian area which stresses shorter range hand attacks. The Bubishi illustrates 47 counters against various attacks and none of these counters utilize kicks, although a few counters to kicks by the opponent are shown.

So, while it is widely agreed early karate was mostly hand based along with low side/oblique kicks to the knee and front kicks to the lower torso, other kicks seem to be missing from the record. High kicks were purposely left out as they put one's jewels at risk. Turning kicks as well - turning one's back to the opponent was considered poor strategy in potentially lethal combat.

But low, close range roundhouse kicks? They seem effective and safe from those dangers. A long shot, unfounded imaginative guess is most Okinawan martial artists up to the latter 1800's were professional warriors and may have had some armor or weaponry that made such a kick awkward to do? Another unlikely reason is that it was a secret technique. It's a mystery to me that no early karate master knew of or invented such a kick, or if they did, why is it not included old kata or kihon? Too bad no one 100 years ago bothered to ask a sensei who might have had the answer.

Yes, I tend to think Shotokan’ish that actually take some inspiration from martial arts of northern China, it’s(Shotokan) Seisan kata have a high crescent kick at the end, don’t know if that is done in any of the Okinawan seisan’s, the Bassai/passai-(dai) even the pure Okinawan passai kata has the crescent kick(mid level), Unsu kata has a jumping crescent kick(not sure the Okinawan version has that one ?)

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yes, I tend to think Shotokan’ish that actually take some inspiration from martial arts of northern China,

Perhaps because the Root Arts of Shotokan include the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei Ryus with "Shorin" being the Okinawan derivation of "Shaolin. "