True Martial Artist.....

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I'm with Paul here… honestly, nothing against Inoue, but there isn't anything in the announcement that indicates a "TRUE" martial artist to me… just a guy doing what he thinks is appropriate… the irony being, of course, that it really doesn't matter what belt he wears… that's purely down to the organisation he's a part of in terms of any relevance it has.

If it was an indication of some kind of litmus test for a "TRUE" martial artist, it'd be easy for anyone to simply reduce their own rank… and claim the same thing. I know of people in a particular organisation which is somewhat renowned for it's fast, loose, and high ranking system who have refused rank (or, more realistically, not gone ahead with the paperwork, and let the teacher forget they awarded it…), or speak more highly of lower-ranked individuals who they feel have superior skills as some kind of indication of their quality as a person (honestly, it is sometimes quite the opposite… a false humility, as it were… a way to be superior by flaunting your willingness to not be superior, or at least, not be identified as superior). I'm also aware of a modern, quasi-Japanese, pseudo-traditional invented system of "jujitsu" where all the senior instructors decided at one point to reduce all their grades by two or three dan… and made a big show-and-dance about it to show just how serious they were about being "true to the traditions" (that didn't really exist)… while still preserving their positions as the seniors… then, about 6 months later, gave themselves the higher ranks back again, as "it didn't really matter"…

Look, I get the reasons to applaud Inoue's actions… but, to my mind, it's got nothing to do with being a "TRUE" martial artist…

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The BJJ community has been debating whether Inoue's decision is admirable or just false humility. Chris Haueter is the most prominent practitioner I've seen criticizing it.

To my mind, belt ranks serve basically three functions.

• For an instructor to provide feedback to a student as to his/her progress.
• To signal a practitioners qualifications to teach.
• To create brackets for competition so that beginners don't have to face experts.

None of these are really that relevant for Inoue. He knows what level his skill is at. His students know his qualifications. He isn't planning on competing until he returns to black belt level.

That being the case, I don't see how it matters what color belt he chooses to wear. He can do whatever makes him happy.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Since when does a belt mean anything when it comes to being a martial artist it's about your skills not a bit of material you put round your waist

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The BJJ community has been debating whether Inoue's decision is admirable or just false humility. Chris Haueter is the most prominent practitioner I've seen criticizing it.

To my mind, belt ranks serve basically three functions.

• For an instructor to provide feedback to a student as to his/her progress.
• To signal a practitioners qualifications to teach.
• To create brackets for competition so that beginners don't have to face experts.

None of these are really that relevant for Inoue. He knows what level his skill is at. His students know his qualifications. He isn't planning on competing until he returns to black belt level.

That being the case, I don't see how it matters what color belt he chooses to wear. He can do whatever makes him happy.

The only real relevance I can think of would be for new students. If I was entering a BJJ school, I might decide to look for a black belt-ranked instructor to get someone with a greater depth of knowledge. It's my experience that the depth of knowledge doesn't degrade at nearly the same pace as the physical skill, so he's probably almost as good in that area as he ever was (perhaps more so, if his head kept wandering back to BJJ during his hiatus).

Mind you, rank's not a great way to select an instructor, but for a new student, it's a piece of data. I'm not sure this is worth down-ranking oneself, but I'm not convinced it's not, either.

 

[pgsmith]

I agree. I was mostly curious as to why you see an audience as invalidating someone as a MA-ist. Again, as I see it, every instructor has an audience (their students), even those teaching koryu (the distinction of which admittedly escapes me - they were once the modern arts). I'm not trying to convince you, but to understand your reasoning.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. I'll try and put my thoughts into something that makes logical sense, which isn't something I'm very good at (just a warning!)

First off, I don't see an audience as invalidating someone as a martial artist. I was responding to the OPs reference to a TRUE (in capital letters. ) martial artist, which I perceive as referring to a martial arts ideal. My idea of such does not include communicating through social media because the koryu do not do that sort of thing. They were conceived, and are still taught for the most part, as a direct teacher to student exchange.

As for difference in teaching the koryu, this can be a difficult thing to explain to those not actually training in a koryu. It begins with what the koryu originally were. Yes they taught martial arts, but they were political entities of their own, and some of them held quite a bit of sway with the powers that be in their time. One did not train in a koryu simply to learn a martial art, one joined a koryu to become part of the school. The overriding thought was "what is best for the koryu to maintain its integrity and accurately continue its teachings." Dave Lowry wrote a fairly interesting article summing up the koryu perspective for those wishing to join the dojo run by Meik and Diane Skoss ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

This attitude, while both elitist and irritating to those not involved, is what has allowed the various koryu arts to be handed down relatively intact for hundreds of years. A great many of them have also died out during that time, but the general attitude is that they would rather allow the ryu to go extinct than to compromise the basic ideals of the school. Most koryu require an interview with prospective students, and many require letters of recommendation. All koryu with which I am familiar eschew airing their internal politics in public, and very few of them will even put much information about themselves on a web site. Public announcements such as the one in the original post are just not done in the koryu.

Hope that explains a bit rather than just muddying the water.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah, I see where you're coming from. I'll try and put my thoughts into something that makes logical sense, which isn't something I'm very good at (just a warning!)

First off, I don't see an audience as invalidating someone as a martial artist. I was responding to the OPs reference to a TRUE (in capital letters. ) martial artist, which I perceive as referring to a martial arts ideal. My idea of such does not include communicating through social media because the koryu do not do that sort of thing. They were conceived, and are still taught for the most part, as a direct teacher to student exchange.

As for difference in teaching the koryu, this can be a difficult thing to explain to those not actually training in a koryu. It begins with what the koryu originally were. Yes they taught martial arts, but they were political entities of their own, and some of them held quite a bit of sway with the powers that be in their time. One did not train in a koryu simply to learn a martial art, one joined a koryu to become part of the school. The overriding thought was "what is best for the koryu to maintain its integrity and accurately continue its teachings." Dave Lowry wrote a fairly interesting article summing up the koryu perspective for those wishing to join the dojo run by Meik and Diane Skoss ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

This attitude, while both elitist and irritating to those not involved, is what has allowed the various koryu arts to be handed down relatively intact for hundreds of years. A great many of them have also died out during that time, but the general attitude is that they would rather allow the ryu to go extinct than to compromise the basic ideals of the school. Most koryu require an interview with prospective students, and many require letters of recommendation. All koryu with which I am familiar eschew airing their internal politics in public, and very few of them will even put much information about themselves on a web site. Public announcements such as the one in the original post are just not done in the koryu.

Hope that explains a bit rather than just muddying the water.

Thanks for the great explanation of the koryu mindset. I believe I understand now why they cling (not meant as a derogatory term) to those traditions. It's much the same as the reason some TMA keep esoteric techniques, bow in a Japanese manner when they are not in Japan, etc. It's just a much more intense maintenance of the tradition of the ryu, and that's something I can respect, though it's not my ideal.

At the same time, I've often found members of koryu who have a very arrogant attitude toward TMA and ModernMA. (You don't seem to share it.) I've seen some who were quite dismissive of anything not koryu as not "real MA". I suppose we can find that same attitude in any MA group (MMA vs TMA and ryuha, TMA vs sport, etc.) - perhaps I simply notice it more when it comes from the koryu, because my first experience with what I'd consider koryu (Yanagi-ryu) was entirely congenial and sharing, except for a few closely-held techniques (again, I think, part of the tradition of koryu).

Thanks for taking the time to share. You and I will disagree on many things, I'm sure; but it seems we will do so well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

After discussion with his teacher (John Lewis), Mr. Inoue has changed his mind and decided to wear his black belt again. He details his thought process and his conversations with his instructor here. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another about it, but it's interesting to see how he came to his decisions. He seems like a sincere guy.

 

[drop bear]

Since when does a belt mean anything when it comes to being a martial artist it's about your skills not a bit of material you put round your waist

If you worked ten years for anything. even if it is your brownie knot tying badge. Then it means something.

And you should be proud of that.

I don't think being focused on a belt diminishes the martial artist at all.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I told this story to my instructor yesterday and he agreed that having been out of training for so long, it's only fair that he go back to the basics and learn from scratch. We have a similar thing in our school where if you stop training for longer than a year, regardless of how far up the system you have gone, when you return you will start from the beginning again.

 

[Tez3]

I'm glad people have confirmed here this thing about 'false humility', we've just sat here watching the former Prime Minister Tony Blair tell us in his words that 'in all humility' how sorry he is for starting a war. I was sitting there thinking why is he telling us that it's in humility, surely if it were real he wouldn't have to. It sounds so false when people say it., I thought it just sounded that way to me.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm glad people have confirmed here this thing about 'false humility', we've just sat here watching the former Prime Minister Tony Blair tell us in his words that 'in all humility' how sorry he is for starting a war. I was sitting there thinking why is he telling us that it's in humility, surely if it were real he wouldn't have to. It sounds so false when people say it., I thought it just sounded that way to me.

That's typical politician speak. They feel the need to spell out their emotions and feelings when they talk, to avoid people misinterpreting them.

 

[Tez3]

That's typical politician speak. They feel the need to spell out their emotions and feelings when they talk, to avoid people misinterpreting them.

True, it seems to be a trend now though that people have to 'explain' their lives, decisions even relationships to everyone now. The seeking of people's approval, people you don't even know, seems to be the fashionable thing to do in these days of social media etc. it doesn't matter what subject it is, post it up for all to see and discuss.

All koryu with which I am familiar eschew airing their internal politics in public, and very few of them will even put much information about themselves on a web site. Public announcements such as the one in the original post are just not done in the koryu.

To be honest I approve of this, too many people wash their dirty linen in public and too many pore over what others say and think, it's not just martial arts of course but we seem to be encouraging a strange sort of society where there's no discretion or tact, just letting it all hang out. Discussion and debate are fine things but there has to be boundaries.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

True, it seems to be a trend now though that people have to 'explain' their lives, decisions even relationships to everyone now. The seeking of people's approval, people you don't even know, seems to be the fashionable thing to do in these days of social media etc. it doesn't matter what subject it is, post it up for all to see and discuss.

Too true. I had an experience like this quite recently. I was hanging out with some friends at a local park, and there was a woman (a stranger, looked quite drunk) who was caught by another group peeing in the bushes. The other group called her a pervert and the argument started. In the end the peeing woman stomped off, and in doing so passed by my group. She stopped and started complaining at us at how the other group had called her a pervert just for peeing in a bush. We just kind of shrugged and she went on her way. Next thing we know the other group approached us complaining about the woman for her complaining to us in the first place. It was quite comical really that this group felt the need to come over to us and justify their actions to a group of complete strangers, as if our opinion of them actually mattered. We just said to them that in all honesty we didn't care what went on and who was "in the right". It had nothing to do with us at all.

 

[Tez3]

There's also a lot of social media stuff about what a 'real father' is a 'real' man, a 'real' woman and so on. I think this idea of what a 'real' martial artist is in the same vein, it's usually an attempt by someone to justify what they are/do to people who really don't actually care. You practice martial arts, cool, let's discuss differences, similarities, funny experiences etc by all means but who is the 'real martial artist and who's not, well, that's just silly. One of my favourite sayings is 'A real woman is..... whatever she wants to be', that applies to martial artists as well.

 

[Buka]

I'm a real Martial Artist. I have a gi and everything!

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm a real Martial Artist. I have a gi and everything!

Ah but do you say "HIYAAAA" and "KAPOW" with each strike? That is the true mark of a Real Martial Artist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I told this story to my instructor yesterday and he agreed that having been out of training for so long, it's only fair that he go back to the basics and learn from scratch. We have a similar thing in our school where if you stop training for longer than a year, regardless of how far up the system you have gone, when you return you will start from the beginning again.

In the mainline of our art, the rule is if you're out more than a year, you have to re-test for your rank. You get to keep whatever rank you can successfully test to. I follow a similar rule, thought it's less cut-and-dried at this point.

I don't think it's necessary for someone to start from white belt just because they've been away from the school for a year or two after training for 10, assuming they've kept their skills up at some reasonable level.

 

[Tez3]

Our adults don't grade or wear belts, they do MMA. They enjoy doing it but it suits them because they go away for weeks and months so can't follow a syllabus. When they went to Afghan they trained with Canadians, Aussies and Americans coming back with new ideas and techniques. At the moment many are in the training grounds in Canada so hook up with local MMA places. It's just very difficult to follow a TMA with gradings etc. though we do teach techniques from our various styles.

 

[marques]

For me, a Black Belt is like a Bachelor. You may forget everything, but it doesn't change. Neither assures you're good enough at the moment you earned it.

Anyway, a true artist is out there training instead of thinking about grades. (But I understand grades may have more sense in some contexts than others...)

 

[Chris Parker]

As for difference in teaching the koryu, this can be a difficult thing to explain to those not actually training in a koryu. It begins with what the koryu originally were. Yes they taught martial arts, but they were political entities of their own, and some of them held quite a bit of sway with the powers that be in their time. One did not train in a koryu simply to learn a martial art, one joined a koryu to become part of the school. The overriding thought was "what is best for the koryu to maintain its integrity and accurately continue its teachings." Dave Lowry wrote a fairly interesting article summing up the koryu perspective for those wishing to join the dojo run by Meik and Diane Skoss ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

This attitude, while both elitist and irritating to those not involved, is what has allowed the various koryu arts to be handed down relatively intact for hundreds of years. A great many of them have also died out during that time, but the general attitude is that they would rather allow the ryu to go extinct than to compromise the basic ideals of the school. Most koryu require an interview with prospective students, and many require letters of recommendation. All koryu with which I am familiar eschew airing their internal politics in public, and very few of them will even put much information about themselves on a web site. Public announcements such as the one in the original post are just not done in the koryu.

Yep. Highly unsurprisingly, I'm backing Paul completely here… and would simply like to add some clarification to his points.

While koryu can be seen as political entities (they were, and are to a great degree), or martial art schools (they were, and are to a great degree), it also can help to think of them as private clubs… ones that operate, largely, entirely within their own subset of by-laws and rules. They exist, not for those outside the club, but for those who are on the inside… so, while they allow outsiders to be aware of them, and have a small idea of what goes on inside, by and large, what happens inside the club is just for members only, as, in the mind of the ryu, anyone outside the club doesn't matter to it's existence.

This means a couple of things… one is that a ryu can become rather insular… limiting their involvement with the greater community, instead, simply looking to their own membership and practice (systems such as Unkou Ryu, a swordsmanship art that traces it's lineage to a student of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, is basically continued today by an ageing father and his son). It can also mean that the ryu can take the approach that outside interest in their teachings are an amusing side-note, but of no real importance (such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu's take on the popularity of the Gorin no Sho… it's somewhat amusing to them, but of no real importance, as they know that the only way to actually understand the book is to train in the ryu [and more])… or it can lead to a rather defiant "we can do what we want!" attitude, with the refusal to allow outside organisations or persons to influence the ryu and it's direction (which I've come across in a number of ways).

All this means that any issues tend to be handled in-house, both positive and negative… with the ryu tending to prefer public ambiguity over making public statements and clarifications. Those in the "club" know… and it doesn't affect those outside it, so why bother letting them know about it? As with anything in koryu, however, there are exceptions to any rule… and, occasionally, public statements are made. Even there, though, they are most commonly made with the interest of the ryu itself being the defining factor… for example, recently there have been a couple of videos of a particular ryu-ha being demonstrated by a young lady and her fellow students. This lady has been put forth by one of the larger koryu collectives as a new "representative" for that system… which, by itself is a shocking breach of etiquette on their behalf… but is further compounded by the fact that this lady is really little more than a beginner in the art in question (there are reasons she was put forth, but none of them matter, or are particularly valid, honestly).

As these videos began to come up on some koryu chat pages, prominent members of the school came forth to explain (in highly frustrated and vexed manner, understandably) just what had happened, who was involved, and why what was being put forth as their art was simply not it at all, despite the waza being ostensibly the same (in gross mechanical details, but not in any way that mattered). They disavowed the supposed representative, and expressed their extreme displeasure at the whole state of events. And this was done, simply, to avoid the impression that what this woman was doing was representative of their art… in other words, the statements were only made publicly in order to help preserve the integrity of their ryu. It's important to note that, once the situation was sufficiently explained, the same members of this ryu requested that the conversation (and threads) be ended, as they'd said all they intended to, and any further discussion was for in-house comment in the ryu itself (which is very much in line with the above observations).

This is a very negative story, and a very sad one for all involved (and those of us privy to it), but not all public announcements are so negative… one of the most intriguing occurred in 2005, when the current soke of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Iizasa Shuri-no-suke Yasusada, made a seemingly innocent statement (by Western standards). For many years, it has been presented in the West, at least, that there is one authorised teacher for the art, Otake Risuke, with any authority to teach having to come from him. The problem is that there are other teachers out there… most famously, Sugino Yoshio Sensei, who received his teaching authority from the previous generation soke. The two dojo have co-existed, primarily by keeping to themselves, with the Otake dojo maintaining it's place, and the Sugino dojo operating separately. When Sugino Yoshio passed away in 1998, he left his son, Sugino Yukihiro Sensei in the position of head of the dojo… however, Sugino Yukihiro (according to popular belief) was never given any authority to teach from Otake Risuke or Iizasa Yasusada Soke… which, according to popular thought, made it illegitimate.

This popular thought pervaded forums, chat rooms, and more, with comments almost exclusively coming from non-members of the ryu, stating with seeming authority who was and wasn't allowed to teach, and who was and wasn't legitimate (to the point that, when people came onto forums to say they'd found a dojo, they would be told that, if it wasn't part of the Otake Dojo, it wasn't authentic, it was fake, and so on… specifically citing Sugino Sensei and his dojo at the time). All that changed in 2005, when Iizasa Soke was speaking at a ceremonial meal after a day of embu (demonstrations) of various ryu-ha. Both the Sugino and Otake dojo had demonstrated… however, only the Sugino dojo representatives stayed for the meal (as was common, really). For his speech, Iizasa Soke identified himself first as Soke of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu… then he identified the members present as "these men are members of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu: Sugino dojo." In a single statement, he had legitimised the Sugino dojo for all present… which immediately threw all of the old assumptions into disarray. If Sugino was legitimate, what about other lines? What was "legitimate", anyway? How much authority did the Sugino dojo have? None of these questions were answered, of course… the statement was made for those present, seemingly to stop the constant querying, and, once made, it wasn't required that it be made again, nor expanded upon. Those in the club knew, those outside, it didn't matter if they knew or not. It doesn't change what happens in the ryu.

Thanks for the great explanation of the koryu mindset. I believe I understand now why they cling (not meant as a derogatory term) to those traditions.

Hmm, you might have missed exactly what was being said, then… koryu don't "cling" to tradition, koryu are those traditions.

It's much the same as the reason some TMA keep esoteric techniques, bow in a Japanese manner when they are not in Japan, etc.

I don't think keeping the (cultural) identity of the art is really anything "esoteric"… I do question those who add their own (often bizarre, and poorly understood or researched) "traditions", aping what they think an Asian cultural expression is, in terms of why they do such things, but that's another thing entirely.

It's just a much more intense maintenance of the tradition of the ryu, and that's something I can respect, though it's not my ideal.

Eh, not so much, really. Personally, I find that much of the "intense" maintenance of (so called) traditions are the more modern systems, and the fake pseudo-koryu arts… in koryu, we just follow what the art teaches… which is done by observing the traditions, certainly, but it's more like someone observing wearing a yarmulke when entering a synagogue, than someone following an extremist zealot idolatry, so to speak.

At the same time, I've often found members of koryu who have a very arrogant attitude toward TMA and ModernMA.

Really? That seems to go against, honestly, pretty much all koryu practitioners and teachers I've encountered… we do occasionally get accused of being "koryu snobs" (I'm rather guilty of that, clearly!), but most koryu practitioners I know are also modern martial artists in one way or another… with a great appreciation of what's presented in various systems and approaches.

(You don't seem to share it.)

Yeah, Paul's a good guy. He's in the club, after all…

I've seen some who were quite dismissive of anything not koryu as not "real MA".

I've occasionally made tongue-in-cheek comments along those lines, but only even to do with particular contexts… and, as I often say, context is everything.

I suppose we can find that same attitude in any MA group (MMA vs TMA and ryuha, TMA vs sport, etc.)

Possibly, yeah.

- perhaps I simply notice it more when it comes from the koryu, because my first experience with what I'd consider koryu (Yanagi-ryu) was entirely congenial and sharing, except for a few closely-held techniques (again, I think, part of the tradition of koryu).

Hmm… Yanagi-ryu… I don't know that it'd qualify as koryu, personally… there's certainly a basis there, most likely something Daito Ryu aligned (and I'm not getting into the whole "is Daito Ryu koryu?" thing…), but there are also more than enough questionable aspects to put some major doubts in my mind… Don Angier was definitely a highly skilled and knowledgable practitioner and teacher, especially in his Aiki methods and historical knowledge, but in other areas, the gaps were noticeable where there shouldn't be any…

I guess what I'm saying is that, if Yanagi-ryu is your go-to example of koryu, then it may behoove you to take a look at the idea that it's not a particularly accurate or "typical" one to use.

After discussion with his teacher (John Lewis), Mr. Inoue has changed his mind and decided to wear his black belt again. He details his thought process and his conversations with his instructor here. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another about it, but it's interesting to see how he came to his decisions. He seems like a sincere guy.

Yeah… look, again, I get his thinking (as expressed in his link), but it again smacks to me of that group of pseudo-Japanese, quasi-traditional "jiu-jitsu" teachers who announced that they were demoting themselves, only to reverse it a few months later… of course, I am rather cynical…