Training The Military

[MJS]

I've noticed this alot lately, so I thought it'd make for a good discussion topic!

Now, I'll start by saying that I'm not in the Military, so perhaps this explains some of the confusion. I'd imagine that much of the training the the people in the various branches get, is pretty much either the same or pretty close. So, I often wonder, because it seems to me that everywhere you look, someone is stating that they are teaching members of the Military. I've seen JKD people saying it, people from other FMA branches, Kenpo people, BJJ people, Ninjutsu people, anyone and everyone.

Now, does this teaching consist of a few Military people going to school A, and learning what is taught? Does it consist of the inst. of school A, going to a Military base, and teaching all of the members? Just find it interesting that you'd have some branches learning BJJ, while others are doing a FMA. I figured it would be kept standard across the board, to a point.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've noticed this alot lately, so I thought it'd make for a good discussion topic!

Now, I'll start by saying that I'm not in the Military, so perhaps this explains some of the confusion. I'd imagine that much of the training the the people in the various branches get, is pretty much either the same or pretty close. So, I often wonder, because it seems to me that everywhere you look, someone is stating that they are teaching members of the Military. I've seen JKD people saying it, people from other FMA branches, Kenpo people, BJJ people, Ninjutsu people, anyone and everyone.

Now, does this teaching consist of a few Military people going to school A, and learning what is taught? Does it consist of the inst. of school A, going to a Military base, and teaching all of the members? Just find it interesting that you'd have some branches learning BJJ, while others are doing a FMA. I figured it would be kept standard across the board, to a point.

Most of the military branches have formal MA training at this time; they didn't when I was in, years ago. The Marine Corps has their own brand of MA, for example, and everyone learns it.

However, individual units are like small companies. Their CO can decide to spend discretionary funds to hire local instructors to teach things they think are valuable to their own unit. So you can get individual training in whatever at the company, battalion, regiment, or even division level. Then that instructor could indeed say they were hired to train the US military, even if it was just a small unit.

In addition, various units that provide 'entertainment' to the troops in the form of hobby shops, activities, camping, etc, can also decide to contract with local martial arts instructors to make such training available to anyone on the base who wishes to attend. In the Marine Corps, they call those units "Special Services," but I don't know what other branches call them. They keep track of volleyballs and make sure the golf courses on base are kept mowed, that kind of thing. Often made up of back-office pogues and wounded real warriors who are in recovery mode.

 

[jks9199]

Lots of instructors "teach" the military, law enforcement, and more.

Very few of them are actual instructors in the military or law enforcement.

Generally, what happens is someone claims to "teach the military/LE" because they get invited to teach an optional/non-required/unofficial seminar or clinic or they have one or more military members or cops in their classes.

Not quite the same thing as being a formal instructor for the military or LE. And they piss me off with that crap!

 

[Aikironin]

Lots of instructors "teach" the military, law enforcement, and more.

Very few of them are actual instructors in the military or law enforcement.

Generally, what happens is someone claims to "teach the military/LE" because they get invited to teach an optional/non-required/unofficial seminar or clinic or they have one or more military members or cops in their classes.

Not quite the same thing as being a formal instructor for the military or LE. And they piss me off with that crap!

Yes, it gets a bit hairy with the claims of "I taught the SEALS" or Delta or Rangers, Force Recon...whatever.

Although usually when those above named units do contract someone out due to discretionary funds, it tends to be big names, like The Gracies, Tony Blauer, or The MMA fighter who assisted the USMC, his name is totally escaping me at the time. But the bottom line is that it is seldom, Joe Black belt, from Rex Kwon Do's School of *** kickery.

Although again in the Military insofar as my experience has been over the last 12 years, both on the enlisted and officer side, Reserve and active component, is that those that claim H2H instructorship clearly do it for marketing, as the Military doesn't really spend that much time on H2H. Much like ancient japan, Jujutsu wasnt' really practiced as much as say, Spear, than Sword, than another weapon, than another weapon, so on and so on. Much like today's military where you work on your rifle, than crew served weapons, than indirect fire weapons (M203) than perhaps the SAW, than AT weapons, so on and so on with H2H being probably right after sidearms in focus of importance.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really it has gotten way out of hand. Unfortunately it is also a very, very hard thing to police. (ie. keep in check) That is because many people do actually teach some police officers, corrections, people from various branches of the military and or are invited to teach a unit or two. This does make it very challenging. However, when someone is claiming this a lot then I think you are wise to either be skeptical or investigate some!

 

[Blindside]

My kali instructor is a contract instructor for the 19th Special Forces Group. I have no idea how the contract is worded, but essentially interested members of the group can participate in his group sessions and he holds special seminars over the course of the year for the group. It isn't mandatory for the weekday sessions but the weekend seminars is usually the entire unit or a large percentage of it.

 

[stickarts]

I have trained individuals from different branches. I always ask what training that they have had and I get a wide range or responses. From the limited number I have trained, it hasn't sounded standardized.

 

[BLACK LION]

I've noticed this alot lately, so I thought it'd make for a good discussion topic!

Now, I'll start by saying that I'm not in the Military, so perhaps this explains some of the confusion. I'd imagine that much of the training the the people in the various branches get, is pretty much either the same or pretty close. So, I often wonder, because it seems to me that everywhere you look, someone is stating that they are teaching members of the Military. I've seen JKD people saying it, people from other FMA branches, Kenpo people, BJJ people, Ninjutsu people, anyone and everyone.

Now, does this teaching consist of a few Military people going to school A, and learning what is taught? Does it consist of the inst. of school A, going to a Military base, and teaching all of the members? Just find it interesting that you'd have some branches learning BJJ, while others are doing a FMA. I figured it would be kept standard across the board, to a point.

Good question... The army and marines have a program as we know...
Most often the training is outsourced to private entities and/or conducted on thier spare time through private sources...especially the special ops community...

Army SF for example has to het hth from thier own private resources...

This is how alot of those " I trained the seals and the worlds most elite" guys are born...

 

[BLACK LION]

As stated above... the military does not spend as much time on HTH as people would think... They dont even get as much time on thier primary, secondary and blade as they should let alone HTH....

 

[jks9199]

The military doesn't spend a lot of time on hand to hand fighting because they have GUNS. If they've ended up going hands on... a soldiers probably screwed the pooch.

Cops don't spend enough time on hand to hand skills, considering that every arrest becomes a potential hand to hand encounter. We just have too many other things to pay attention to...

 

[MJS]

Thanks everyone for your replies! As I said, I was just curious due to the fact that it seems that everyone and their brother is claiming to teach, so I found it odd that there were so many variations of instruction, as I figured it would be more standardized.

IMO, I think that rather than someone looking to make a claim to fame, the group looking for the training, should find something that would be most applicable for what they're most likely to face. As an example...while there is nothing wrong with learning ground defense, I'm kinda surprised at how much I see thats geared towards the Military version of the UFC.

On the flip side, if we look at the Police or Corrections Academy, unless the dept. in question has their own academy, vs. one run by the State, the same thing is taught across the board.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here in Michigan PPCT and Defensive Tactics is the norm taught LEO's and Corrections officers. (standard through the State) However some agencies want more and private contract out to individuals that they feel would be beneficial to work with. Many, many other individuals have been involved in this in a limited manner over time. However, usually it is a one time or it can be ongoing training. Those individuals though that teach in this capacity really are adjunct instructors and should not in my opinion be going around claiming to teach LEO's, Corrections and or military. Instead I think the professional approach is to carry on your business and not brag it up! Individual LEO's, corrections or military personel will seek out further instruction as a desire to be more well rounded and prepared or just because they enjoy it. Personally I feel that if you teach these people you should not also be out there bragging it up. However these are just my opinions and obviously I am in the minority.

Still always be wary when someone claims that they teach military or police.

 

[stone_dragone]

One thing that I have seen alot in this realm is an instructor near a military base has a student or two from a high speed (mostly highly funded, comparably) unit co-located with that base. Those students, seeking to get the instructor some free publicity and possibly drum up some business for his instructor organizes a half day or so of training with the unit. If the powers that be like what they see, the individual is invited back for periodic PT sessions to add variety for the Soldiers involved.

Other times it backfires and the instructor doesn't get to come back or get any new students.

Either way, the instructor could then say that they have taught "the XXth Whatever Forces Group (ABN)."

When I was in Iraq the second time, I taught a class 4 days a week to a group that at one time or another included Air Force, Army, civilians and an Iraqi or two. I still don't claim that I have "taught internationally" or "instructed deployed joint military forces in a warzone." Maybe I should...

 

[BLACK LION]

One thing that I have seen alot in this realm is an instructor near a military base has a student or two from a high speed (mostly highly funded, comparably) unit co-located with that base. Those students, seeking to get the instructor some free publicity and possibly drum up some business for his instructor organizes a half day or so of training with the unit. If the powers that be like what they see, the individual is invited back for periodic PT sessions to add variety for the Soldiers involved.

Other times it backfires and the instructor doesn't get to come back or get any new students.

Either way, the instructor could then say that they have taught "the XXth Whatever Forces Group (ABN)."

When I was in Iraq the second time, I taught a class 4 days a week to a group that at one time or another included Air Force, Army, civilians and an Iraqi or two. I still don't claim that I have "taught internationally" or "instructed deployed joint military forces in a warzone." Maybe I should...

Thank you for your service.... good post.

All very good points here...

9/11 blew a huge hole in everything and created a seemingly endless orifice for ever tom dick and hank to ozze out of and get a piece of the pie... from training to gear to and everything and anything else relative


Even if I trained the most elite... I would sound off about it... The politics and propaganda created in all this makes it difficult to be taken seriously from a reality based standpoint unless you have that type of resume to spew off...
As mentioned above it seems that focus is more on competitive combatives and a PR rep than simple, gross caveman violence...

The navy has zero HTH and this is even after the fact that unless you are socom/gunersmate or an mp you will most likely never touch a rifle or pistol unless you are qualifying...
As mentioned above, even in the branches that put a firearm in every members hands they focus very little on brutal violent hth... they have rifles with less lethal accoutrements...pistols and knives before they are empty hand...

HTH on a branchwide scale is more about PR than being able to kill or incapacitate with body weapons alone...
Of course the more elite may train differently or more extensively but they still have more methods of force before going hth... They also normally seek the big names but under the same martial arts umbrella...

There is no super funtabulous secret training... its about quality and quantity and it can be found anywhere from the most noteable to the ones under a rock and completely unheard of...

 

[Carol]

Of course many people teach the military (or LEOs). Military/LEO folks make for a statistically significant percentage of the folks that sign up for classes/training as an adult.

I think its safe to say that practically everyone has "taught the military" because they have signed up students in the service, full or part time.

Hell, I taught my niece a few basics to add to her empty-hand background so I guess I've taught the military too.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The military doesn't spend a lot of time on hand to hand fighting because they have GUNS. If they've ended up going hands on... a soldiers probably screwed the pooch.

I did alot of unarmed combatives in Boot Camp. Unarmed, knive, and bayonet was done as much as firing in Boot Camp. MCT did alot of MCMAP as well (about as much MCMAP as traditional PT, but not as much as firing). Hell, we did a bit of MCMAP in my MOS School, and I'm in a non-combat MOS.

Am I missing something, or am I not in the military?

 

[jks9199]

I did alot of unarmed combatives in Boot Camp. Unarmed, knive, and bayonet was done as much as firing in Boot Camp. MCT did alot of MCMAP as well (about as much MCMAP as traditional PT, but not as much as firing). Hell, we did a bit of MCMAP in my MOS School, and I'm in a non-combat MOS.

Am I missing something, or am I not in the military?

You also did a lot of formation marching.

The USMC has an atypical emphasis on hand-to-hand at the moment, as demonstrated by the entire MCMAP program and its integration into the Corps. I may be mistaken -- but I do recall reading something about progression to a certain level in MCMAP being an element of fitreps and promotional assessment.

Additionally, the role of the hand-to-hand training (just like learning to march in formation) is not always the immediate and obvious reason.

And, somehow, I bet any seasoned noncom or even officer would tell you that, as a general rule, if you're going hands on in most MILITARY missions... something's kind of wrong.

 

[CuongNhuka]

You also did a lot of formation marching.

The USMC has an atypical emphasis on hand-to-hand at the moment, as demonstrated by the entire MCMAP program and its integration into the Corps. I may be mistaken -- but I do recall reading something about progression to a certain level in MCMAP being an element of fitreps and promotional assessment.

Additionally, the role of the hand-to-hand training (just like learning to march in formation) is not always the immediate and obvious reason.

And, somehow, I bet any seasoned noncom or even officer would tell you that, as a general rule, if you're going hands on in most MILITARY missions... something's kind of wrong.

It is importent to promotion. However, I've only met 1 NCO who had a negative oppion of MCMAP. My Plt Sgt is pretty into having everyone go to MCMAP classes.

Going into, and finding yourself needing are two very different things, know what I mean?

 

[Decker]

In my country, our army has a group of dedicated close combat instructors (CCIs) who get their vocation after a selection process.
Since our biggest national martial art organisation is (sport) taekwondo, 2nd gup and above Kukkiwon TKD practitioners get much higher priority. Once posted to their CCI vocation, they'll undergo more specific training in something that's actually useful for soldiers in hand-to-hand combat.
They then go to various training schools to teach trainees the techniques in this syllabus - basic strikes and eventually rudimentary sweeps, throws and locks.

Still, I've heard a bit too often that sometimes, these close combat lessons are more to "teach us to channel our aggression" than to impart any real proficiency (we still learn though). The above points on soldiers having guns to use rings really true here.

My sports kenjutsu instructor sometimes gets contracts to conduct workshops/courses for certain batches of trainees, also more with the aim of imparting "aggression" and other soft skills, along with letting them have some fun, rather than imparting proficiency with archaic battlefield weapons. I suppose in this case, to say "we've trained the army" would be a bit more inaccurate and exaggerating than "we've conducted this course for the army"...

Oh, I'm from Singapore, by the way. A great proportion of our army are conscripts.

 

[Aikironin]

You also did a lot of formation marching.

Love it!

Did Army Combatives in Basic, Ranger Indoctrination Program and IOBC, and that was about it. Army loves to do it in the school house, everywhere else it competes with other priorities, such as weapons qual, PT, Battle drills and Medical skills.

When I was an enlisted soldier my 1SG used to have a scatter chart to refer to when a PSG wanted to do Helocasts and Zodiac stuff. One the X axis would be "chances that we will do this in combat" one the Y axis "chances that someone will die if we F*** it up". Great lesson on the importance of what to train on when you are going to war, and what to do as a morale boost.