Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gerry Seymour]

They would be evidence that at least any teaching approach exists.

Someone else's. Which wouldn't really say anything about my approach. No matter how good or bad those other examples are (and, yeah, other examples do exist), they wouldn't reflect either positively or negatively on my own approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A guarantee would guarantee martial arts works.

It is kind of in the description.

Um, that's not really how a guarantee works. It guarantees some compensation if the conditions aren't met. A guarantee on a fridge doesn't actually mean the fridge will 100% work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yeah. I do. And you almost got there. Clearly, trying to discuss things isn't working. I figure I'll just try and adopt your tactics. Is that a problem?

Only when it is apropos of nothing. My comment was a continuation of an ongoing discussion. Yours was just random words stuck in to try to be clever.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is stupid. You can open a fridge and feel the cold air. You can put meat in the fridge and leave meat out of the fridge and see that the meat inside the fridge stays good for longer. You don't need to know how a fridge works to know that a fridge works. But what if someone tries to sell you something called a fludge? They say it works just like a fridge, but doesn't use any energy and doesn't need to keep food cold. Oh and you can't put any food in it. But if you did, it would stay fresh, just like a fridge. Trust us.

That's self defense training.

That's an interesting analogy. So, your claim is that folks teaching with a self-defense orientation are universally making some extraordinary claim that their training doesn't require something that sport-oriented training requires? What is that "something" you're alleging we all - every one of us, apparently, by the post I'm quoting - claim is necessary for sport training, but not for self-defense-oriented training?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kind of the opposite. It's about being repeatable, and about the context. I can see plenty of evidence that fridges work. I can also see that my fridge works. I can also make my fridge work by using my fridge. And through daily use, I can honestly say that I'm an expert at using my fridge. I know how to keep the veggies fresh and the fruit fresh, and how to make my cilantro last a good week, if needed. But I couldn't buy a fridge in Europe and plug it into my wall outlet in America, because even though fridges work in general, and European fridges work in Europe, and even this specific unit I have would work for someone else, it doesn't work for me here. Self defense training is kind of like being that person, sold a 220 v fridge in a 110v environment. The salesman just says, "Hey, it's a good fridge. A great fridge. Keep it, and when you need it, plug it in and it will work. I promise. Look. Here's an adapter that makes the plug look just like those other ones."

But if you've never used it professionally, did you ever really use that fridge?

 

[Steve]

That is a ridiculous assertion and a high percentage of what you describe is on the person/buyer.
Why are you so obsessed with thinking people cannot be informed and intelligent about a purchase or product? Why in the world would I buy a European fridge for my home in America? Why in the world would you not discover all you can about a product? This comes largely through experience and wisdom, sometimes in the form of learning from out mistakes.
It rings of the old saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

of course it's ridiculous. And yet, that's self defense training. Once again, it seems obvious until cognitive dissonance sets in and you apply the same standard to self defense training. Then you just sort of lash out.

 

[Steve]

That's an interesting analogy. So, your claim is that folks teaching with a self-defense orientation are universally making some extraordinary claim that their training doesn't require something that sport-oriented training requires? What is that "something" you're alleging we all - every one of us, apparently, by the post I'm quoting - claim is necessary for sport training, but not for self-defense-oriented training?

Not all of them, Gerry.

 

[Steve]

But if you've never used it professionally, did you ever really use that fridge?

professionally is one way. Amateur is another. And both are different from never. Now, if I were you, this is where I would accuse you of intentionally misrepresenting my point. Isn't that your go to play when someone responds as you do above?

As a percentage, most things people do are not professional. But they do them. Self defense is the single exception. Unless.... Are you going to share another example?

 

[Steve]

Um, that's not really how a guarantee works. It guarantees some compensation if the conditions aren't met. A guarantee on a fridge doesn't actually mean the fridge will 100% work.

I'm sorry you were raped. Would you like your tuition for April refunded to your card?

 

[drop bear]

That's an interesting analogy. So, your claim is that folks teaching with a self-defense orientation are universally making some extraordinary claim that their training doesn't require something that sport-oriented training requires? What is that "something" you're alleging we all - every one of us, apparently, by the post I'm quoting - claim is necessary for sport training, but not for self-defense-oriented training?

Results I think is the "something" you are looking for.

 

[drop bear]

Um, that's not really how a guarantee works. It guarantees some compensation if the conditions aren't met. A guarantee on a fridge doesn't actually mean the fridge will 100% work.

No but it puts ownus on the fridge maker to produce a product that will probably work.

Self defense never has to work.

 

[drop bear]

Someone else's. Which wouldn't really say anything about my approach. No matter how good or bad those other examples are (and, yeah, other examples do exist), they wouldn't reflect either positively or negatively on my own approach.

People are really paying for a mystery box of mystery when the sign up tho be trained then.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not all of them, Gerry.

Okay, that clarifies a bit. Your post sounded like you meant it to apply to all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

professionally is one way. Amateur is another. And both are different from never. Now, if I were you, this is where I would accuse you of intentionally misrepresenting my point. Isn't that your go to play when someone responds as you do above?

As a percentage, most things people do are not professional. But they do them. Self defense is the single exception. Unless.... Are you going to share another example?

You're still drawing a distinction between self-defense fighting skill and fighting skill. They're not that different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm sorry you were raped. Would you like your tuition for April refunded to your card?

What the actual hell was that, Steve?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Results I think is the "something" you are looking for.

No, I don't think I've ever heard a self-defense-oriented place claim they don't have to produce results. Some probably don't, but I've never heard that claim made by them. I think your analogy is backwards if that was your point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People are really paying for a mystery box of mystery when the sign up tho be trained then.

Mostly, they watch classes or attend a few to see if it's what they want. They get to see (and experience, if they choose) my teaching approach that way. It's much more informative than a few videos would ever be. Most also have training in other arts, so are well equipped to make that decision. Mostly, folks from Australia seem to have a hard time finding information on my training approach, but they rarely come by to watch classes and quite literally never sign up for training, so it seems a non-issue.

 

[dvcochran]

of course it's ridiculous. And yet, that's self defense training. Once again, it seems obvious until cognitive dissonance sets in and you apply the same standard to self defense training. Then you just sort of lash out.

I assure you I am not lashing out. Trying to counter your instant negativity? Yes.
I am trying to understand you atypical attitude toward all things business/product related. In your context, it is as though all consumers (aka everyone) are doomed. Whether it is joining a martial arts program or buying a refrigerator. No one can follow your logic and live a happy life.

 

[dvcochran]

professionally is one way. Amateur is another. And both are different from never. Now, if I were you, this is where I would accuse you of intentionally misrepresenting my point. Isn't that your go to play when someone responds as you do above?

As a percentage, most things people do are not professional. But they do them. Self defense is the single exception. Unless.... Are you going to share another example?

This is where your argument(s) get so broad and circular it is obvious you just want to argue ad nauseum.
I will ask you again; define self defense and it's training. Define amateur and professional. Define your idea of a self defense scenario and how/what you use as defense. Define how MA training, any training does not or would not help. Do not be stereotypical, be real.
@Gweilo made a very good point about using self defense in the real world. What category does this fall in?

Some time ago I argued the value of mandated standards for martial arts schools/instructors (it would be in my content history). It was quickly rebuffed and you could understand how massive an undertaking and damaging it could be to the industry. Just too much variety to tightly lump into one regulated body.
Fortunately for people who are interested, it is an industry with a very broad and diverse offering. As I said previously, a 'one size fits all' due to this broadness.
How/who would regulate? I will use my local environment as an example. There is only two commercial schools, both different variants of TKD and a few at home classes of different styles. Forty miles to our west there are over 50 commercial schools. How do you organize and maintain a governing body?
I still maintain it is a intriguing idea to me but it is not high on my priority list.
I also learned that most countries have certification and some licensing for mostly health/sanitization requirements within the physical space. Gyms and exercise facilities fall into this category so MA school's would be included. After a little inquiring I found that most of the 'policing' is done reactive in the event of a reported violation and/or annual fee triggers.

So, cut to the chase. What are you arguing for/about. What exactly is it that you want?

 

[dvcochran]

Mostly, they watch classes or attend a few to see if it's what they want. They get to see (and experience, if they choose) my teaching approach that way. It's much more informative than a few videos would ever be. Most also have training in other arts, so are well equipped to make that decision. Mostly, folks from Australia seem to have a hard time finding information on my training approach, but they rarely come by to watch classes and quite literally never sign up for training, so it seems a non-issue.

I would have clicked 'like' and 'agree' with this post it possible.