Training advice needed, please

[lostinseattle]

And I think this post sums up your issue nicely...

It seems like you expect to walk in, wave around that Shotokan black belt and whatever else you've done, and be exposed to "the secrets." You want the instructor to teach the class YOUR way, not his, on YOUR terms, not his. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe it's just the result of the textual format here removing nuance from communication.

It doesn't tend to work that way...

There are no secrets to katas bunkai/waza. Like Exile says, Iain Abernathy has an entire DVD series. Kise's 'secrets' are out there. There are no secrets. There are only teachers who want to make a good living and/or have status or are too lazy to teach their students the applications.

You can do the kata 10,000 times and unless you have the breakdown you won't have a clue as to what it's for.

So I'm done with it. Yes, I want to be taught on MY terms because I'm spending MY time and MY money. If they don't give me what I want, then I walk. It's pretty simple.

So I've decided to walk. As of next week I'm going to be going to AMC Pankration and doing MMA because that's about all that Seattle seems to be good for.

 

[g-bells]

jessie glover, a bruce lee original student, teaches in seatle

 

[lostinseattle]

jessie glover, a bruce lee original student, teaches in seatle

I guess somehow my point is totally lost which is that I'm not looking for another teacher, and definitely not JKD which does not do traditional waza/bunkai. And what I've come across from Yeung Quan isn't exactly something I'd pursue either.

It really seems like only Exile gets what I'm saying here. Training traditional bunkai, not studying ... not studying ... not studying.

At AMC they do kickboxing and boxing and Pankration. Very simple stuff but at least it's hands on.

 

[Brian King]

Have fun at AMC. They have some good fighters and world class instructors there teaching their “very simple stuff”. Simple of course does not mean easy.

LostinSeattle wrote:
“Training traditional bunkai, not studying ... not studying ... not studying.”

What do you see as the difference between training and studying?

Brian

 

[lostinseattle]

Have fun at AMC. They have some good fighters and world class instructors there teaching their “very simple stuff”. Simple of course does not mean easy.

I've visited their classes. It's not that hard. No harder than judo or karate. Actually a lot less hard than judo and a lot of karate I've been to. Perhaps that's why Salaverry lost his last UFC fight, although he's opened his own place too now.

What do you see as the difference between training and studying?

Brian

Studying would imply a teacher to student relationship. Training just means doing drills and working on techniques. I'm not looking for anybody to teach me anything.

Does that make sense? I'm not looking for somebody to say this is a block, this is a punch, this is a knife-hand strike ... rather there's no place where you can go and work on techniques in a partner environment except sparring, and sparring is usually too competitive to work on techniques.

I've gone to perhaps 30 different schools in the Seattle area and talked to many more instructors and they all want to teach. They do not want to have anybody who just trains. There was one place in Bothell (dragon martial arts or something) that has a MMA technique/sparring night but he tried to get me into his JKD derivative classes and was pretty insistent I take those before doing the MMA sparring so I didn't go for that.

Bottom line is teachers are there to make money and teach classes. They have little reason to have any open practices unless it's to recruit new students. There are a few places who do open sparring in Seattle but that's not drilling or working on techniques.

And instructors (such as yourself) do not want people just working on techniques. You're there to teach a class, you have a system (no pun intended), and you want to teach that, get people to pay for learning that, etc.

If somebody from karate is going to come to your Systema classes, you're going to want them to do Systema, right? You're not going to want them doing karate and practicing with your Systema people, and even if you allowed that (and I've gone to some practices like that), there's a lot of making the other people look bad in an attempt to prove the art at the school is better. It is perhaps subtle or not so subtle but the hazing is always there, because instructors want to promote their art, their school, make money, etc.

Every school I've gone to that claimed to have some open-ness or open practices always turned into a recruitment and sales speech. Every one. About 9 different schools in the Seattle area all claimed to be open but when I got there it was a sell job.

I've also tried training partners but it turns into social hour. Very little actual work gets done. Especially as you add more people into the mix.

 

[Flying Crane]

Bottom line is teachers are there to make money and teach classes. They have little reason to have any open practices unless it's to recruit new students. There are a few places who do open sparring in Seattle but that's not drilling or working on techniques.

Sounds to me like you just need to find a small group of like-minded people, who all have a solid background, and get together in your back yard and practice and learn from each other. You can do this on your own, you just need to find some people who want the same thing.

But yes, if you go to a school, most likely they intend to teach their art. It's not usually an open free for all for just anyone to come in and do whatever they want...

 

[Brian King]

Lostinseattle wrote

“instructors always insist you learn their forms even though it's pretty much useless to train another entire system's forms if you have one system down.”
And
“I'm not looking to study another system.”
And
“It doesn't seem like even Abernathy's school would let you just drill traditional waza/bunkai for years after doing just one form.”
And
And since partner training just turns into social hour because of lack of discipline on people
and
I'm not looking for anybody to teach me anything.

If I understand what you are saying and I may be off on this, is that you want a body/bodies to practice on. You are not interested in having anyone teach you anything, you want to practice application work without any instruction from anybody. hmmm Perhaps this is your answer my friend. Since you have at least one system down and have years of knowledge and experiences and since all other places are either too far away, too expensive, or they do not do things your way, or any of the other reasons you have to not participate, there seems to be only one recourse open for you. Open your own school. By opening your own training gym, you can teach or not teach and practice only what you want and charge what you think it would be worth. You do not have to teach any forms at all if you do not want to or you could teach only one form for years and years, you would be free to teach applications as you understand them. You would then of course also be free and able to allow people/strangers to come into your school and while not signing up for lessons, not supporting you or your school, you could let them work on whatever they wanted to with you and your students, letting them practice and perfect their stuff on you and your students. You have identified a training need that the Seattle area is sorely lacking, and I am sure that there are many of your local martial arts friends and associates, peers and such that would love to come visit your school and practice on/with you. Kind of like a Rent a Body gym. So have you given any thought about opening your own school??

Regardless, have fun at AMC, it has a solid reputation as a good school, they get top dollar for their lessons but seem to be worth every dollar.

Brian

 

[Flying Crane]

I gotta kind of agree with Brian. Some of the people here have made some suggestions and offered some advice, but nothing seems to be quite right for you. I'm not entirely sure I understand your point of view, but it sounds like Brian has sort of hit the target. Maybe you are just hoping for some bodies to practice on. That is unrealistic, at least to go to someone else's school and do that. So I think your only recourse is to organize your own training sessions with like-minded people, or open your own school and do things your way...

 

[lostinseattle]

If I understand what you are saying and I may be off on this, is that you want a body/bodies to practice on. You are not interested in having anyone teach you anything, you want to practice application work without any instruction from anybody. hmmm Perhaps this is your answer my friend. Since you have at least one system down and have years of knowledge and experiences and since all other places are either too far away, too expensive, or they do not do things your way, or any of the other reasons you have to not participate, there seems to be only one recourse open for you. Open your own school.

I have given it some thought, even done the business model, cost studies, checked out rental costs, insurance, etc. Phinney Neighborhood center seems to be the cheapest place around in terms of that.

Guess I've been reticent because schools are kindof everything I'm against. I don't want to turn into the kind of person that I've been running into at these commercial schools, so interested in recruitment, pushing stuff onto people, always having a sales pitch and having to always convince everybody that school is the best, etc.

However, Phinney is cheap enough and insurance low enough cost that if I wasn't making a profit there wouldn't be a need to charge people very much.

But running a class seems like it would be a lot of overhead in terms of time and would take a lot of time away from training, having to answer questions, get people organized and all of that.

Those are the main reasons I haven't done it.

Regardless, have fun at AMC, it has a solid reputation as a good school, they get top dollar for their lessons but seem to be worth every dollar.

Yeah, honestly AMC is kindof a mixed bag. But it is a place to train, and at least then the MMAers can't get on my case about not doing MMA.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Bruce Lee (no less) said that he thought instructors spent so much time on forms just to fill up class time.

quote]Too bad he had the benefit of studying those forms for twenty years and his followers did, and do, not. Thats why he was mo' betta.
Sean

 

[lostinseattle]

Too bad he had the benefit of studying those forms for twenty years and his followers did, and do, not. Thats why he was mo' betta.

Do you think he was better because of the forms, though? He seemed to think that wasn't the reason he was good given everything he said and his notes. If he thought that forms were good then why would he have railed against them?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Do you think he was better because of the forms, though? He seemed to think that wasn't the reason he was good given everything he said and his notes. If he thought that forms were good then why would he have railed against them?

In my opinion he was better for all the efforts he put in forms. I think his philosophy on teaching then conflicted with that practice, but there were benefits to the study of motion that you don't hear from JKD practitoners these days. They seem to warn of over studying a move theory, or concept. He did and was for 'em before he was against 'em:ultracool
Sean

 

[lostinseattle]

In my opinion he was better for all the efforts he put in forms. I think his philosophy on teaching then conflicted with that practice, but there were benefits to the study of motion that you don't hear from JKD practitoners these days. They seem to warn of over studying a move theory, or concept. He did and was for 'em before he was against 'em:ultracool
Sean

Yeah, I dunno ... from what little I've seen of JKD around here, it's a highly simplistic solution to fighting. There's the chain punch schools and there's the tricky keep the hands out of sight school, and some instructors have thrown in some grappling and stick work but it doesn't seem to be very developed.

The tricky keep the hands out of sight school doesn't work if the person isn't isn't in a standard boxing type stance and the chain punching is easily avoided by stepping to the side. And the stick work and grappling doesn't measure up to real kali or judo/bjj.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah, I dunno ... from what little I've seen of JKD around here, it's a highly simplistic solution to fighting. There's the chain punch schools and there's the tricky keep the hands out of sight school, and some instructors have thrown in some grappling and stick work but it doesn't seem to be very developed.

The tricky keep the hands out of sight school doesn't work if the person isn't isn't in a standard boxing type stance and the chain punching is easily avoided by stepping to the side. And the stick work and grappling doesn't measure up to real kali or judo/bjj.

This is why they can charge $400 a month for lessons. There is no way to practice on your own.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

This is why they can charge $400 a month for lessons. There is no way to practice on your own.
Sean

??? I didn't realize you can't use a footwork drills, shadow box, or throw combinations on a heavy bag on your own.