Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Steve]

I'm not sure I follow.... are you saying Sanda/sanshou is for show only? and not useful in a real fight? (I'm not upset, just wondering what you mean)

Sanda is Sanshuo and Cung Lei was a Sanda fighter and a rather good one. Also there are different versions of Sanda/Sanshou. Military/Police, Sport and there is another set occasionally referred to as civilian. I trained the Police version for a bit, and I can tell you, it is as serious as a heart attack in application. As my teacher said, Sanda is not the best martial art or the hardest or the most impressive, it is just a quick way to learn how to hurt someone very badly

Just the opposite. I love sanda. It's awesome.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just the opposite. I love sanda. It's awesome.

OK, thanks

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Good question. We have to be kind of careful. My intention isn't to be vague, but fraudbusting is frowned up. So, I end up sounding a little passive aggressive.

I'm talking about folks who say things like, "We don't train to fight. We train for self defense," who will also talk about how they never fight (and in some cases, have NEVER fought). These guys will also often describe their own training as being "effective" on the street, and will opine about what works and doesn't work in a "real fight."

To be clear, it's not style specific. It's training specific, though some styles definitely embrace a lack of application as a feature and not a bug. This is a great example of how, if you train for some application, your style can work great. But this is true in the converse, as well. It's the application that makes it work, not the style. So, if you train white crane, wing chun, ninjutsu, or aikido and apply the skills, the PEOPLE who train in those styles will learn to apply the skills. And the inverse, if you train in boxing, MMA, BJJ, wrestling, or kickboxing, and remove the application, it will pretty quickly devolve into something that barely resembles "effective".

I think I understand you. Thanks for the answer. I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.

 

[Steve]

I think I understand you. Thanks for the answer. I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.

I agree with that, and if you internalize that idea, then you will begin to think about the entire topic in terms of transfer of skills. Edit: General "you" not specifically you.

Step one is to develop functional expertise in some context.

Step two is to transfer those skills to a new context. The more similar these contexts are, the more successful you will be at the very beginning, and the flatter your learning curve.

An example I've used outside of fighting is bladesmithing that I think highlights the issue pretty well. If you have two guys, one (like me) who likes to read about it, watches Forged in Fire, and enjoys it on an academic level... and another guy who has never forged a knife before, but has years of experience making a living as a blacksmith, crafting tools from steel and iron. Neither of us has ever made a blade, and it could be argued that both of us have SOME relevant experience. I know some of the jargon. I can explain the process academically. I've even seen a lot of the troubleshooting that they do when they make common mistakes. I can talk ABOUT it. But if you give me and that other guy tools and a forge and say, "You have one chance to make me a functional knife. And if you don't, we will beat you to within an inch of your life," who do you think has the best odds of success?

I would say in the analogy above, I am like a TMA stylist (in the shorthand usage of the term), and the other guy is a competition/sports stylist.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Looks a lot like Sanda or San Shou to me. I love it, as long as folks who don't compete and apply their skills understand that they probably can't do that, in the same way a person who does Tae Bo probably can't do what a kickboxer does.

Causes a lot of problems, though, when folks who train in styles that are too cool to apply their skills look at these dudes as some kind of validation of their technique and training model. The "that guy uses [insert my TMA style} in MMA (or some other competitive application), so the good news is that I can definitely fight"

The USKFS is an open invitation, all styles tournament. Wing Chun schools show up, and Hung Ga schools. Mantis schools, Muay Thai, MMA schools show up.

That particular video montage is San Shou on Lei Tai (raised platform), a particularly risk-prone competition format. It's so dangerous that in Taiwan, they often do these types of tournaments on floating platforms over water, rather than flooring. Throws are allowed so getting thrown off the platform can be life-changing event.

 

[Steve]

The USKFS is an open invitation, all styles tournament. Wing Chun schools show up, and Hung Ga schools. Mantis schools, Muay Thai, MMA schools show up.

That particular video montage is San Shou on Lei Tai (raised platform), a particularly risk-prone competition format. It's so dangerous that in Taiwan, they often do these types of tournaments on floating platforms over water, rather than flooring. Throws are allowed so getting thrown off the platform can be life-changing event.

Are there any videos of stylists from the other styles? I think that would be fun to watch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.

Sparring and competition is the path that can help you to reach to your real fight goal.

If you have knocked/taken many people down in the ring, or on the mat, the chance that you can repeat your success in real fight will be high.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have more than one plan so I can apply the correct plan to the type of fighter that is in front of me. I couldn't imagine doing one type of plan unless no one could stop it.

If you have executed your plan successful, you will accumulate more experience in that area. You will be more familiar with that plan than your opponent may know how to counter it.

To have a plan can solve the problem that you move in throw a punch and don't know what to do afterward. For example, if you enter with a groin kick, you then follow with jab-cross-hook-uppercut, you can keep your opponent busy for a while.

Do you think this guy fight like kickboxing?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Are there any videos of stylists from the other styles? I think that would be fun to watch.

The video Jow Ga posted has all the styles.

Those aren't just kung fu fighters in that video compilation, they're all mixed in together in formal weight classes, in a kung fu tournament format that goes back about 100 years.

It's a really funny event. Muay Thai fighters show up and get clobbered by San Shou people. Kung fu people get clobbered by MMA guys. And then MMA guys who know kung fu basically write their own ticket into the pro leagues. The US Kuoshu team gets selected from this tournament and they go on to fight overseas. Fortune and glory.

The overall tournament includes a lot more than the San Shou tournament, there are medals for forms, weapons, even light sparring ( the martial arts equivalent of a participation trophy). Something for everyone.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I agree with that, and if you internalize that idea, then you will begin to think about the entire topic in terms of transfer of skills. Edit: General "you" not specifically you.

Step one is to develop functional expertise in some context.

Step two is to transfer those skills to a new context. The more similar these contexts are, the more successful you will be at the very beginning, and the flatter your learning curve.

An example I've used outside of fighting is bladesmithing that I think highlights the issue pretty well. If you have two guys, one (like me) who likes to read about it, watches Forged in Fire, and enjoys it on an academic level... and another guy who has never forged a knife before, but has years of experience making a living as a blacksmith, crafting tools from steel and iron. Neither of us has ever made a blade, and it could be argued that both of us have SOME relevant experience. I know some of the jargon. I can explain the process academically. I've even seen a lot of the troubleshooting that they do when they make common mistakes. I can talk ABOUT it. But if you give me and that other guy tools and a forge and say, "You have one chance to make me a functional knife. And if you don't, we will beat you to within an inch of your life," who do you think has the best odds of success?

I would say in the analogy above, I am like a TMA stylist (in the shorthand usage of the term), and the other guy is a competition/sports stylist.

Hmm. I get the analogy, but I’m not sure about your conclusion. Where is the third one? I mean, I’m not the sports competition guy, I’m not the untried untested TMA guy either. I’m somebody else because I’ve had lots of real fights (made knives that functioned). My CMA is not pure TMA because it has elements of western boxing etc. ( why would that be there unless Sifu Woo found out that it works) Sifu Woo was also a golden gloves boxer in the navy, and a close friend of Gene Lebell. I trained JJJ and boxing as a kid. I guess that technically makes me MMA? I don’t know, I’m not sure any of these labels make sense to me

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sparring and competition is the path that can help you to reach to your real fight goal.

If you have knocked/taken many people down in the ring, or on the mat, the chance that you can repeat your success in real fight will be high.

Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.

 

[Steve]

Hmm. I get the analogy, but I’m not sure about your conclusion. Where is the third one? I mean, I’m not the sports competition guy, I’m not the untried untested TMA guy either. I’m somebody else because I’ve had lots of real fights (made knives that functioned). My CMA is not pure TMA because it has elements of western boxing etc. ( why would that be there unless Sifu Woo found out that it works) Sifu Woo was also a golden gloves boxer in the navy, and a close friend of Gene Lebell. I trained JJJ and boxing as a kid. I guess that technically makes me MMA? I don’t know, I’m not sure any of these labels make sense to me

Every kind of application offers different benefits. There are many options. Experience is a spectrum. That's missing the point, though, which is that there is a material, functional difference between academic experience and practical experience. Knowing about vs knowing how.

That said, to your point, the more disparate the experience and skills you have from the context into which you are being asked to perform, the lower your chances of succeeding... particularly on the first try.

It works in reverse, too. If you have a lot of experience in fights, but have never competed, and someone says, "Hey @Wing Woo Gar, you need to enter this competition and fight under this ruleset. You get no additional training, and have to succeed in your first match against a random opponent. Would you win? Maybe. Depends... but the more similar your actual experience is to the competition, the better prepared you will be.

The big advantage that sport has over other contexts is you have some control over the stakes. Starting with street fights can lead to dire results. Starting with competition allows you to build a skillset in a more controlled, safer manner, while still building to functional skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Much better.

yep. movement is cleaner. I wanted to compete in it but by the time I figured out how to use Jow Ga, I was too old. Which is life. I had 20+ year gap between Jow Ga schools. Not even sure, that I would have been able to learn how to use it even then. It took 1 year of weekly 2 hour sparring classes for me to work it all out. That didn't happen until I became an instructor and had some input on what was taught at the school. My son on the other may have a shot. If he keeps up his training then he'll be ready by 30. 10 years of the training that we are doing now should be more than enough for that level of competition, it should be enough for amateur fights. But that's all if he's interested in things like that.

Right now, he just likes kung fu and working out. Not sure why he has a sudden interest in it as we don't talk kung fu or weight lifting. So maybe one of his friends is doing it. Maybe he finally has a rival that drives him.

 

[drop bear]

Wait which ones are too cool? I hear this type of stuff a lot from you Steve. I’m never quite sure about where this comes from or what you mean exactly. Are you saying that I can’t do what these guys do because I don’t compete? I’m confused, straighten me out.

In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you have executed your plan successful, you will accumulate more experience in that area. You will be more familiar with that plan than your opponent may know how to counter it.

To have a plan can solve the problem that you move in throw a punch and don't know what to do afterward. For example, if you enter with a groin kick, you then follow with jab-cross-hook-uppercut, you can keep your opponent busy for a while.

Do you think this guy fight like kickboxing?

Nope that's not kick boxing. I can see some techniques that are used in kickboxing but what they are doing isn't kickboxing but all of that changes on the grappling begins. When the hand touches the mat the round is reset. Certain throws shown in that video would be illegal in kick boxing. I think the more exposure that people have to martial arts, the easier it becomes to recognizes what is what. My neighbors don't know anything about martial arts so for years they still think I train Karate even though I tell them that I train Kung Fu.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.

There is a lot of space in between there. I’m not John Jones and I’m not doing any backyard MA either. I teach three times a week and train four times a week. I’ve been doing my current martial art for 25 years. I had boxing and JJJ as a kid prior to Wing Woo Gar. Both my Sigung and my Sifu had lots of ”outdoor experience” and I do too. So you tell me, in your estimation where that puts me?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You may also notice, I was asking Steve. Please do weigh in here, however, I would appreciate answering the question posed.

In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.

I don't need to be John Jones to kick the mess out of someone's leg, shin, or knee with an oblique kick (shadowless kick).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Every kind of application offers different benefits. There are many options. Experience is a spectrum. That's missing the point, though, which is that there is a material, functional difference between academic experience and practical experience. Knowing about vs knowing how.

That said, to your point, the more disparate the experience and skills you have from the context into which you are being asked to perform, the lower your chances of succeeding... particularly on the first try.

It works in reverse, too. If you have a lot of experience in fights, but have never competed, and someone says, "Hey @Wing Woo Gar, you need to enter this competition and fight under this ruleset. You get no additional training, and have to succeed in your first match against a random opponent. Would you win? Maybe. Depends... but the more similar your actual experience is to the competition, the better prepared you will be.

The big advantage that sport has over other contexts is you have some control over the stakes. Starting with street fights can lead to dire results. Starting with competition allows you to build a skillset in a more controlled, safer manner, while still building to functional skill.

Oh I’m not suggesting that street fighting is a good way to learn, not at all. It is however, where most of my actual experience came from. To answer your point, I really don’t know how I would perform in a rules based competition. I would say that it’s likely I would be a DQ because I don’t train for a sport. I am hardwired to win at any cost when fighting for real. I have no doubts or delusions about what happens when it’s real. Let me ask you, how much street violence experience you have? I’m not being facetious, I am genuinely curious.