Traditional Chinese Training In Denver Area?

ebozzz · Apr 29, 2009

Greetings,

I am on the hunt for a quality school for myself and my two children (ages 9 & 16). We live in the Aurora and ideally, my preferences would be to find a location that is near home. Thus far, I have only found one school in Aurora. It is listed below....

http://www.taikungha.com/index.html

There are also several schools around the metro area that intrigue me. Here are the links for those....

http://www.denverchikung.com/

http://www.shaolinhungmei.org/

http://www.hosmartialarts.com/

http://www.wahlumdenver.com/

http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/index.html

http://www.boulderkungfu.com/

All of the schools above were found simply by searching the internet. I have not had the opportunity to visit either of them. I would appreciate any feedback that can be shared regarding any that are on the list or any that you wish to add as possible options. I am not asking for a bash fest. Any experiences, positive or negative, share them with me. If you feel that it is necessary to blast any organization, please send me a private message including the details. Thank you very much! I anxious await your replies...

Flying Crane · Apr 29, 2009

I don't know anything about any of these specifically. However, I also don't see any obvious red flags popping up, just from perusing the websites.

I'd say go visit each school, even a couple of times. Speak with the instructors, watch a couple of classes if possible, and see which one most appeals to you and which one feels the most right to you. This means both the type of training and the atmosphere of the school. It needs to be a place in which your feel comfortable, as well as offering quality training.

JadecloudAlchemist · Apr 29, 2009

My thoughts on the schools:
http://www.taikungha.com/class.html

I do not know much about Taoist temples in Vietnam also Taoism like any religion has sects so we really can not say Taoist temple we have to say something like Kun Lun sect of Taoism.
He claims to teach Dao yin. Dao Yin from my understanding is something of a obsecurity and those claiming to teach Dao yin should be met with caution. Taoist Qigong and Taoist Taiji sword again odd. Saying Wudang sword form or Wudang Qigong would be a better term because Taoist is a very generic term. Form wise kinda of flashy but I have seen worse.
Next school:
http://www.denverchikung.com/discipline.html

I don't like his Santi Shi position in the pictures. Santi is Xingyi posture it looks rigid to me no root. Has a good linerage so thats a good thing.He practices I think Gao style Bagua so I don't see anything wrong with this school looks fine to me. However his style is a combo of styles so I don't know how traditional you are looking.

Next school:
http://www.shaolinhungmei.org/kf1.html
Nothing jumps at me as odd. I would like to have read the teacher's bio but I don't see it. This style is also known as Bak Mei.

Next school:
http://www.hosmartialarts.com/?q=node/2
Cool they teach Sun and Wu some what rare Taiji compared to Yang and Chen. I do not see anything odd here. Seems like a decent school

Next school:
http://www.wahlumdenver.com/history.php
A good represented school part of the Wahlum known pretty well in America.

Next school:
http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/lineage.html
Well it is Gao style Bagua. I have no idea the Xingyi,Taiji and what ever else. But the Gao style should be fine.

Next school:
http://www.boulderkungfu.com/lineage.html
Looks fine to me I don't see anything odd.
Teaches Praying mantis,Wu Taiji,Qigong nothing odd that I see.

Its sometimes hard to tell if someone is good or not without talking to them. The websites except the first one seem like normal Kung fu schools.
You would have to narrow the schools down more and maybe I could give a deeper look.

Xue Sheng · Apr 29, 2009

As already said

It is hard to judge via website. Looking at the one where he is in various Xingyiquan postures if I compare that to what I was taught water and fire are wrong but not knowing his lineage or even his style makes it hard to judge via picture on a website

a note on daoyin. It is thrown around by many today as something old or mystical or special. All Daoyin is qigong; Daoyin is just an old name for what we no call qigong. Some of the Chan family refers to their qigong as daoyin. The name was changed I believe in the 60s or possibly the 50s.

ebozzz · Apr 29, 2009

Flying Crane, Jade Cloud and Xue Sheng, I would like to thank each of you very much for taking the time to reply to my original post. The sites that I provided are just a start to my search. There is no way that I could make a decision simply based on the information that was provided on them. It was more of an effort to hopefully get anyone who looked at the thread to maybe have better insight as to what I am seeking. I was also hoping that someone could possibly provide me with other locations that I might not be aware of.

The first school, Tai Kung Ha, is the most convenient from a commuting standpoint. I am almost certain that I could make it there in less than 30 minutes. All of the others are over 30 minutes away with the locations that are in Boulder (Hung Mei, Gao & Boulder Kung Fu) taking an hour or more to reach depending on traffic/weather conditions. Quality of instruction will be the determining factor. I will not choose to go to Tai Kung Ha simply because it is the closest. I want the best option for long term training.

My next step will be to call each location, introduce myself and inquire when it would be acceptable to possibly pay a visit. Jaded Cloud, thank you for bringing up the your concerns regarding the first option. I will ask about which sect of Taoism they practice. I will also try to get more specific information regarding the other generalities that you pointed out. Best wishes to each of you and thanks again....

clfsean · Apr 29, 2009

My thoughts...

... Boulder Kung Fu/Gao Bagua top choices...
... Wah Lum
... Ho's
... anything else is a crap shoot for various reasons

JadecloudAlchemist · Apr 29, 2009

There is no doubt that a Chinese influence exist on the Vietnamese they share similar deties and origin myths. We do know there exist Vietnam Kungfu how wide it is taught I have no idea.
This is a little hard to swallow:

Sifu Ha began his training at the age of seven in a Chinese Taoist temple in South Vietnam. There Master Hoang Ca Cuong, a (Fukien branch) Shaolin monk and master of Hung Gar Kung Fu, recognized his potential and accepted him as his disciple. Thus, as is rarely allowed, Sifu Ha was trained in the traditional Chinese Family Arts disciplines of Hung Gar Kung Fu, including traditional weapons forms. He also studied under Master Lam Duong Hoa

I really think the Taoist Taiji sword form is Wudang. Its Taoist,Taiji and the age of 300years would place it Ming-Qing dynasty. It also looks like Jian he is using. When speaking on Qigong you can find out how good someone is on how well they understand Qigong theory. I have wrote alot on this site about it. If he is good at Taiji he will know rooting,be relaxed,and sunk. The Dao yin as Xue has said is a term not really being used anymore.
Hmm he learned Yang Taiji from Li Wei Ming. Ming was a Wu(Hao)stylist so how come he did not learn Wu style too? http://www.wuhaotaichi.in.th/history/liweiming/liweiming_eng.html

I can't find anything on the other teachers. I am going to bed see you later.

ebozzz · Apr 29, 2009

JadecloudAlchemist said:
There is no doubt that a Chinese influence exist on the Vietnamese they share similar deties and origin myths. We do know there exist Vietnam Kungfu how wide it is taught I have no idea.
This is a little hard to swallow:

I really think the Taoist Taiji sword form is Wudang. Its Taoist,Taiji and the age of 300years would place it Ming-Qing dynasty. It also looks like Jian he is using. When speaking on Qigong you can find out how good someone is on how well they understand Qigong theory. I have wrote alot on this site about it. If he is good at Taiji he will know rooting,be relaxed,and sunk. The Dao yin as Xue has said is a term not really being used anymore.
Hmm he learned Yang Taiji from Li Wei Ming. Ming was a Wu(Hao)stylist so how come he did not learn Wu style too? http://www.wuhaotaichi.in.th/history/liweiming/liweiming_eng.html

I can't find anything on the other teachers. I am going to bed see you later.

Jade, Once again, thank you so much!

ebozzz · Apr 29, 2009

clfsean said:
My thoughts...

... Boulder Kung Fu/Gao Bagua top choices...
... Wah Lum
... Ho's
... anything else is a crap shoot for various reasons

Care to elaborate on why you feel the way you do? Thanks!

JadecloudAlchemist · Apr 30, 2009

Speaking of the Gao school.
http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/history.html#luo

It talks about where the Xingyi and Taiji comes from A good school IMO.

Wah Lum is a well known school they have a temple in Orlando,Fl.
I have met Shelly Huang who is Wah Lum in Miami she is a nice person.

Ho's school offers Sun style Taiji which is a combonation of Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji from the famous Sun Lutang. Sun Lutang learned Wu(Hao) style.
Interest note he learned from Carrie Wong who's Husband is Douglas Wong who wrote this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Fig
Anyway the Ho school has an impressive resume and they practice Acupuncture so you might learn some of that.

clfsean · Apr 30, 2009

ebozzz said:
Care to elaborate on why you feel the way you do? Thanks!

Feelings & experience is all...

For instance,

...the Boulderkungfu guy (7 Star Mantis) won't be teaching under his teacher's flag unless he can use it & teach you to use it. Plain & simple.

...The Gao Bagua guy... I know some Gao people here in Atl... good stuff & again won't teach without being able to use it & teach you to use it.

...Wah Lum has mandatory sifu recertification every 3 years to maintain quality control for people flying the Wah Lum Flag.

... Hung Mei ... gave me a funny vibe. Hung Mei is a Southern art but everything was in Mandarin. No Southern art that I know (I know lots) would swap Cantonese for Mandarin. I've seen Hung Mei in NYC... what they had listed on the website didn't jive with what I saw in NYC.

... Viet art... not familiar enough with Viet arts, but what I have seen has left me wondering what they got & what they didn't...

... Xingyi guy ... odd vibe.

ebozzz · Apr 30, 2009

Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need plenty of participation, right?

Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....

Sifu Mike Bingo is a native New Yorker of Italian ethnicity. He grew up in the Italian neighborhood and as a result, became a good street fighter at a very early age. Mike was always very athletic. As an adolescent, he trained as a boxer at the Main Street gym. He also wrestled, played football and baseball. He is a carpenter by trade.

Mike Bingo is a United States Army Special Forces Combat Veteran who operated in Europe and Asia for over fifteen years. During the years from 1969-1972, he lived in Taiwan, ROC and studied extensively under his teacher, Hsu Hong Chi, of Tang Shou Tao famous lineage, becoming his senior student. ….licensed teacher and most respected lineage holder. He retired from the Special Forces at the rank of Sergeant Major.

SGM Mike Bingo is an expert in close-quarter, hand-to-hand combat. He has trained extensively in Ju-Jit-Su/ Judo, Okinawa Karate and Tang Shou Tao Kung-Fu.

Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....

The “Sin Lung Kwoon” (Celestial Dragon School) is the fourth generation from Taiwan. The school’s chairman is Sifu Mike Bingo, the school is dedicated to Sifu Bingo’s teacher Master-Teacher Hsu Hong Chi of Taipei Taiwan whose Taipei Sin Lung Kwoon is third generation Hsing-I. Master Hsu Hong Chi’s teacher is Master Huang-I-Hsiang, founder of the Tang Shou Tao and the Wu Tao Kwoon second generation Hsing-I. The first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng, Huang-I-Hsiang’s teacher. His school is I-Tsung Kuo-Shu Kwoon. Master Chang Chun Feng came from mainland China, San Dong province after the great Chinese Civil War in 1948. He studied Hsing-I under Li Tsun-I and Pa-Kua under Kao-I-Sheng in the early decades of the 20th century.

There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....

American Tang Shou Tao Association

Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....

Code:

Xing Yi Quan Lineage                                                                                                  This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list.  Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known .
 
   
 [center][B]General Yue Fei[/B] &#23731;&#39131;: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I]

[B]Ji  Ji Ke[/B] &#23020;&#38555;&#21487; (Ji Long Feng &#23020;&#38534;&#20016;)
[B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] &#26361;&#32380;&#27494;, Ma Xue Li &#39340;&#23416;&#31150;  

[B]Dai Long Bang[/B] &#25140;&#40845;&#37030;, Dai Lin Bang 
[B]
Li Luo Neng[/B] &#26446;&#27931;&#33021; (Li Neng Ran) 

Che Yi Zhai &#36554;&#27589;&#40779;(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong &#23435;&#19990;&#27054;, 
[B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] &#21016;&#22855;&#20848;, Guo Yun Shen &#37101;&#38642;&#28145; 

[B]Li Cun Yi[/B] &#26446;&#23384;&#32681;, Keng  Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong &#24373;&#20806;&#26481; 
Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien,  Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]&#24373;&#20426;&#23792;

Hong Yi Wen &#27946;&#25087;&#25991;, Hong Yi Mian &#27946;&#25087;&#26825;,  [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]&#27946;&#25087;&#31077;: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I]

[B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]&#35377;&#40251;&#22522;[B]:[/B][I] Founder of  the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi 

John  Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the  American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=Red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black  
  
Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I]
  
Anthony Franklin
Mark Kimzey
Lani Lum
Tim Bonson
Dan  Albritton
Charles Benza
Rick Deisler
Richard Iser
Ron Torrez
Kim  Albritton
John Simpson
Debbie Bryan
  
2nd Generation ATSTA Students
Rick Coila
Jason Crahen
Mike Boen
Danny Motta
Nate Cross
Tim Heckman
Jason Morris
Read Wall
[/center]
  [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]

The name Vince Black also appears in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.

North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA)

I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way?

I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....

Shifu Mike Bingo would be the best choice.

He teaches at the Sin Lung Kwoon

When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....

Its the best training you can get in that area that is real and will give back benefits later in life.

enjoy

The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decison has been made as of yet. The search continues.....

ebozzz · Apr 30, 2009

Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need plenty of participation, right?

Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....

Sifu Mike Bingo is a native New Yorker of Italian ethnicity. He grew up in the Italian neighborhood and as a result, became a good street fighter at a very early age. Mike was always very athletic. As an adolescent, he trained as a boxer at the Main Street gym. He also wrestled, played football and baseball. He is a carpenter by trade.

Mike Bingo is a United States Army Special Forces Combat Veteran who operated in Europe and Asia for over fifteen years. During the years from 1969-1972, he lived in Taiwan, ROC and studied extensively under his teacher, Hsu Hong Chi, of Tang Shou Tao famous lineage, becoming his senior student. .licensed teacher and most respected lineage holder. He retired from the Special Forces at the rank of Sergeant Major.

SGM Mike Bingo is an expert in close-quarter, hand-to-hand combat. He has trained extensively in Ju-Jit-Su/ Judo, Okinawa Karate and Tang Shou Tao Kung-Fu.

Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....

The Sin Lung Kwoon (Celestial Dragon School) is the fourth generation from Taiwan. The schools chairman is Sifu Mike Bingo, the school is dedicated to Sifu Bingos teacher Master-Teacher Hsu Hong Chi of Taipei Taiwan whose Taipei Sin Lung Kwoon is third generation Hsing-I. Master Hsu Hong Chis teacher is Master Huang-I-Hsiang, founder of the Tang Shou Tao and the Wu Tao Kwoon second generation Hsing-I. The first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng, Huang-I-Hsiangs teacher. His school is I-Tsung Kuo-Shu Kwoon. Master Chang Chun Feng came from mainland China, San Dong province after the great Chinese Civil War in 1948. He studied Hsing-I under Li Tsun-I and Pa-Kua under Kao-I-Sheng in the early decades of the 20th century.

There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....

American Tang Shou Tao Association

Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....

Code:

Xing Yi Quan Lineage   					 				 						 		 	 	 		 	This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list.  Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known.
 
   
 [CENTER][B]General Yue Fei[/B] &#23731;&#39131;: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I]

[B]Ji  Ji Ke[/B] &#23020;&#38555;&#21487; (Ji Long Feng &#23020;&#38534;&#20016;)
[B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] &#26361;&#32380;&#27494;, Ma Xue Li &#39340;&#23416;&#31150;  

[B]Dai Long Bang[/B] &#25140;&#40845;&#37030;, Dai Lin Bang 
[B]
Li Luo Neng[/B] &#26446;&#27931;&#33021; (Li Neng Ran) 

Che Yi Zhai &#36554;&#27589;&#40779;(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong &#23435;&#19990;&#27054;, 
[B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] &#21016;&#22855;&#20848;, Guo Yun Shen &#37101;&#38642;&#28145; 

[B]Li Cun Yi[/B] &#26446;&#23384;&#32681;, Keng  Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong &#24373;&#20806;&#26481; 
Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien,  Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]&#24373;&#20426;&#23792;

Hong Yi Wen &#27946;&#25087;&#25991;, Hong Yi Mian &#27946;&#25087;&#26825;,  [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]&#27946;&#25087;&#31077;: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I]

[B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]&#35377;&#40251;&#22522;[B]:[/B][I] Founder of  the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi 

John  Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the  American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=Red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black  
  
Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I]
  
Anthony Franklin
Mark Kimzey
Lani Lum
Tim Bonson
Dan  Albritton
Charles Benza
Rick Deisler
Richard Iser
Ron Torrez
Kim  Albritton
John Simpson
Debbie Bryan
  
2nd Generation ATSTA Students
Rick Coila
Jason Crahen
Mike Boen
Danny Motta
Nate Cross
Tim Heckman
Jason Morris
Read Wall
[/CENTER]
  [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]

The name Vince Black also appears in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.

North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA)

I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way?

I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....

Shifu Mike Bingo would be the best choice.

He teaches at the Sin Lung Kwoon

When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....

Its the best training you can get in that area that is real and will give back benefits later in life.

enjoy

The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decision has been made as of yet. The search continues.....

jarrod · Apr 30, 2009

very helpful thread, i'm moving to parker next month & was planning on visiting some CMA schools before i find a jujitsu school. i was especially planning trying the chin na class at http://www.taikungha.com/schedule.html

jf

Xue Sheng · Apr 30, 2009

ebozzz said:
Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need plenty of participation, right?

Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....

Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....

There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....

American Tang Shou Tao Association

Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....

Code:

Xing Yi Quan Lineage This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list. Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known. [center][B]General Yue Fei[/B] 岳飛: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I][/center] [center][B]Ji Ji Ke[/B] 姬際可 (Ji Long Feng 姬隆丰) [B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] 曹繼武, Ma Xue Li 馬學禮 [/center] [center][B]Dai Long Bang[/B] 戴龍邦, Dai Lin Bang [/center] [center][B]Li Luo Neng[/B] 李洛能 (Li Neng Ran) [/center] [center]Che Yi Zhai 車毅齋(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong 宋世榮, [B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] 刘奇兰, Guo Yun Shen 郭雲深 [/center] [center][B]Li Cun Yi[/B] 李存義, Keng Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong 張兆東 Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien, Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]張俊峰[/center] [center]Hong Yi Wen 洪懿文, Hong Yi Mian 洪懿棉, [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]洪懿祥: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I][/center] [center][B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]許鴻基[B]:[/B][I] Founder of the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi [/center] [center]John Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black [/center] [center]Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I][/center] [center]Anthony Franklin Mark Kimzey Lani Lum Tim Bonson Dan Albritton Charles Benza Rick Deisler Richard Iser Ron Torrez Kim Albritton John Simpson Debbie Bryan[/center] [center]2nd Generation ATSTA Students Rick Coila Jason Crahen Mike Boen Danny Motta Nate Cross Tim Heckman Jason Morris Read Wall[/center] [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]

The name Vince Black also appears in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.

North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA)

I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way?

I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....

When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....

The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decision has been made as of yet. The search continues.....

Um

That Xingyi lineage makes no sense.

Dai Long Bang is Dai family Xinyiquan not Xingyiquan and it is likely that Xingyiquan came from Xinyiquan. So he would be before Ji Jike. Also just as a note; Although General Yue Fei is a real person in Chinese history he is the mythological founder of Xingyiquan that historically excepted founder is Ji Jike (Ji Longfeng)

Which brings me to "first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng" First generation would be Ji Jike.

ebozzz · Apr 30, 2009

jarrod said:
very helpful thread, i'm moving to parker next month & was planning on visiting some CMA schools before i find a jujitsu school. i was especially planning trying the chin na class at http://www.taikungha.com/schedule.html

jf

Hello Jarrod,

Here is another school that I found which is based in Centennial not far from Parker.

School of Chinese Fighting Arts

I didn't feel good about this one at all so I probably will not consider it. You may feel differently. I am also aware a couple of Jujitsu schools near Parker...

Fusen Academy

Mizukan Dojo

I know nothing about the quality of the those two schools so do your homework. Another place that you may want to check out is the Ninpiden Dojo. It's a Ninjutsu school that is actually Parker that has a loyal following and seems to have good ancestry.

Ninpiden Dojo

Good luck!

Xue Sheng · Apr 30, 2009

ebozzz

Some info on Xingyiquan

Xingyiquan 5 element for (Generally the first form you learn) you might want to look here to see Xingyiquan videos

Also Santi Shi is a BIG part of Xingyiquan and you are talking about going with your 2 children ages 9 and 16. Santi shi is this and part of "real" Xingyiquan training is standing in santi for a long time. As my last Sifu was told by his Sifu "if you stand for 20 minutes you are a beginner" meaning 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes.

Real Xingyiquan is not flashy or pretty and the training is generally hard and at times painful. It is not real popular due to this but I personally think it is one of the best CMA styles on the planet. Most unfortunately high level teachers are hard to find.

I don't want to discourage you but these are things to take into consideration before you jump into a style.

ebozzz · Apr 30, 2009

Xue Sheng said:
Um

That Xingyi lineage makes no sense.

Dai Long Bang is Dai family Xinyiquan not Xingyiquan and it is likely that Xingyiquan came from Xinyiquan. So he would be before Ji Jike. Also just as a note; Although General Yue Fei is a real person in Chinese history he is the mythological founder of Xingyiquan that historically excepted founder is Ji Jike (Ji Longfeng)

Which brings me to "first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng" First generation would be Ji Jike.

My head hurts from all of this!

Xue, thanks for sharing once again.....

ebozzz · Apr 30, 2009

Xue Sheng said:
ebozzz

Some info on Xingyiquan

Xingyiquan 5 element for (Generally the first form you learn) you might want to look here to see Xingyiquan videos

Also Santi Shi is a BIG part of Xingyiquan and you are talking about going with your 2 children ages 9 and 16. Santi shi is this and part of "real" Xingyiquan training is standing in santi for a long time. As my last Sifu was told by his Sifu "if you stand for 20 minutes you are a beginner" meaning 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes.

Real Xingyiquan is not flashy or pretty and the training is generally hard and at times painful. It is not real popular due to this but I personally think it is one of the best CMA styles on the planet. Most unfortunately high level teachers are hard to find.

I don't want to discourage you but these are things to take into consideration before you jump into a style.

Xue,

You are not discouraging me at all. Finding a good CMA school is very difficult to do. I know very little about the arts other than what I have read and including a few videos that I have seen. That's why I posted the thread.

Xingyiquan is really what I was personally after. I definitely am interested more in the internal arts for myself. The more I research this, the more it seems like the kids may be going to a different school than the one than I will attend. I had already mentioned this as being an option. If that is what it takes, that's what I will do.

Xue Sheng · Apr 30, 2009

Get ready for more head hurting - xingyiquan

First I have to make a correction, I apologize I am not at home where all my books and notes are on this. Also like many things in CMA lineage there is more than one story as to origin. Look here

Xingyiquan lineage is considered to be as follows by Jin Yunting

Ji Jike > Cao Jiwu > Dai Longbang > Li Feiyu > Liu Qilan > Li Cunyi

Excerpt from Xingyi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting

But there is much discussion as to who Dai Longbang actually learned from. It is pretty well known who Li Laoneng taught but not who he really learned from although many say it was Dai Longbang who was Dai family Xinyiquan which then makes it a whole lot more confusing as to what Ji Jike was actually teaching but it is fairly well known that he developed a spear style that may have been the root of Dai Xinyiquan. So at this point the first documented Xingyiquan person is Li Laoneng who may or may not have learned Xinyiquan form the dai family.

In the lineage from Jin Yuting he has Li Feiyue who may be Li Laoneng, I am not sure but Li Laoneng is allegedly Liu Qinlins sifu. And Liu Qinlin taught Li Cunyi. Li Cunyi also learned Bagua as well allegedly from Dong Haichuan the historically excepted founder of Baguazhang (but the Yin Yang Bapazhang people dispute that)

Now to Chan Chun Feng (Zhan Junfeng) 1902 1974 [video]

He was a student of Li Cunyi (Xingyi and Bagua) and Gao Yisheng (Gao style Bagua)

So he was a legitimate Xingyi/Bagua guy just not first generation.

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