To-Shin Do/Bujinkan

[SKB]

Who has spent any significant time studying ToShinDo and another system? From the post I can read some people have done some of this, but has anyone spent a good amount of time?

 

[Don Roley]

I'm sorry I started this thread as it seems to be the people from my own art who stirs things up and are oblivious to common courtesy.

When someone like you comments on the bad behavior of someone in his own art, it lets all of us not in the art see that it is not populated by people marching in lockstep. So I really appreciate you commenting on this and nipping a TSD/ BBT fight in the bud.

I don't think there is any art that does not have a few idiots. I remember one guy who claimed to study Bujinkan and just had to go over to the TKD forum and tell them they were wasting their time. Some of us really wanted to find out who that guy was and jump up and down on him.

As long as people like you keep things postive here and there is time to heal from all the damage certain people from places as widely distributed as California and the UK did here, then we can look forward to a good relationship in the future.

But there are arts like Okinawan karate that do similar katas, but are different arts. They use the same name, but the sequence and such is different in each art. When one art does something different from another Okinawan art, there really does not seem to be much need for anyone to say that the other guys are wrong. But I don't think that will be the case with ninjutsu. As long as people use the terms that the soke uses, then they will be held to the standard and definitions of that use. That has been and will be a source of problems in the near future I feel.

 

[Carol]

But there are arts like Okinawan karate that do similar katas, but are different arts. They use the same name, but the sequence and such is different in each art. When one art does something different from another Okinawan art, there really does not seem to be much need for anyone to say that the other guys are wrong. But I don't think that will be the case with ninjutsu. As long as people use the terms that the soke uses, then they will be held to the standard and definitions of that use. That has been and will be a source of problems in the near future I feel.

Hey Don, would you be able to offer an example where the same terminology to one means something different to the other? I don't know if that's a fair question given that I don't study either art but I was just curious.

 

[maccuda]

Saru1968, i have spend 2,5 year in Bujinkan and 2 years now in the To-shin do system.
That might not be a very long time but actually training it does give you (or i think) an understanding what it is about instead og guessing or

Mind you that different schools have different teachers so not 1 school is the same even if they study the same priciples.

I find the differences between the 2 not that far apart. Yes there are differences but the roots are the same and to me the base (techniques & stances etc) are of the same nature.
To-shin do is just adapted a bit more to modern day society. Postures are disguised more (so you dont look agressive on cctv) and especially in the beginning techniques deal with the most common attacks (like hooks/punches/tackles etc) and not alot with history, sword and the more classical forms one gets taught in the Bujinkan.
That anyway is my opinion.
They both are great ways and great to practice, one is not "better" then the other, they are different in some ways but similar in even more.

 

[Don Roley]

Hey Don, would you be able to offer an example where the same terminology to one means something different to the other? I don't know if that's a fair question given that I don't study either art but I was just curious.

Sorry, I don't know much about Okinawan arts aside from what I have seen some people talk about. IIRC, the kata called Pian is called Heian in other arts and there has been some small differences in the way things are done. Why, I do not know. If people think that one art is doing things differently from them because they are wrong, it is not something that seems to have been mentioned around me.

 

[Don Roley]

I find the differences between the 2 not that far apart. Yes there are differences but the roots are the same and to me the base (techniques & stances etc) are of the same nature.

Perhaps if you spent more time in one or the other the differnces would become clearer. Some people look at arts like karate and jujutsu and can't tell the difference. Some of us can sip certain wines and not be able to tell a burgendy from a caberet. But if you know the subject matter a great deal, then you can tell the differences.

The secret is to say that you can't tell the differencedue to a lack of experience rather than try to say that there is no difference. With the former, you keep your mind open to the chance that there may be differences you can't see. But with the former, you pretty much take a stake that is hard to change no matter how much evidence is laid out in front of you.

 

[maccuda]

Don,

i know i'm not a master or in the field for 20 years but i'm sure i can say more about the differences then most people on this forum who just speculate or have information secondhand.
I dont want to say which one is better since that is personal, just noting my personal experience and stating where i have based this on (my training years), so people can choose to take that serious or not.
This thread was about the two arts, so i have responded how i feel about them, having practiced them both. I have never said that there was NO difference (see my previous post)

About wines, its a Cabernet by the way and if one has tried wines every week for almost 5 years, i am sure that person has a better view of which is which then someone who never tasted any or alot of wines.

I have a very open mind and came here to discuss the difference between the arts since i am very interested in both, not to be attacked about how i view things myself.

 

[Don Roley]

i know i'm not a master or in the field for 20 years but i'm sure i can say more about the differences then most people on this forum who just speculate or have information secondhand.

Don't be so certain.

Ninjamom had a post a while back in a thread about kenjutsu. She pointed out that treasury agents are trained to look for forgeries by handling a lot of real bills for a long time. Only then are then allowed to pick up bogus bills. Due to their long experience with things that they know are real, they are able to pick up the differences with something different that most of us can not.

That is the danger of doing two things with only a little time behind us. It may seem that we are looking at the same thing. But a person who really, really knew one of the two subjects might have the differences jump right out at them.

I know that when I first started, things seemed a lot closer to a lot of other arts than they do now.

And then there is the problem of questioning what do we mean by Bujinkan and what do we mean by Toshindo. If you look at the Bujinkan posters, a lot of them seem to have quite different outlooks on the art and how it is done. It is not uncommon for us to get into a screaming match about which way is more correct for doing Bujinkan.

At the same time, people will acknowledge that Hayes had a huge influence in the way the art was taught in America.

So, are these differences and similarities due to Hayes versus Hatsumi's way of doing things? If Hayes taught one way and Hatsumi another, then the people who learned from Hayes or learned from people who learned from Hayes may be doing things his way while saying that they are following Hatsumi's footsteps. I have seen that type of thing happen.

So if we are talking about Bujinkan, I would say that we need to be looking at the way Hatsumi and his senior students do things and advise us to train. The same goes for Hayes. This makes things very difficult since whenever we get someone who wants to say that they have trained in both, it seems that they have not been around the standard of the art for more than a few hours. What we are left with is people who have trained with a teacher trying to emulate his teacher comparing what he does with another person trying to emulate another teacher. If we think that the standards are the heads of the art themselves, then we can see how these comparisons are flawed from the beggining.

Really, how many people here can say that they have trained with either Hayes or Hatsumi for more than 40 hours in the last year? Those that are honest enough to say they have not should be willing to say they really are not in a position to know what the head of the art is trying to teach and can't make a comparison.

 

[maccuda]

I agree with you there Don.

but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.
If one would look at the masters then one would need someone who as you said is very close to them and studied with them for a long time closely.
quite unlikely to find someone on a forum like this.

I cannot see it benefits anyone here to say which art is better, they are different, thats the way it is.
We can only discuss how different, in an objective manner.
Wasnt that the purpose of this topic? to see what people think the differences are without shooting at anyone?

I personally think Bujinkan or Budo tai jutsu as well as To-shin do are great, all of them, with all their differences and such.
As i said, they have the same roots and thats whats connects them.

I for one would like more people to say why they specifically chose for what direction and what they feel is different from their own experiences.

 

[Carol]

I agree with you there Don.

but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.
If one would look at the masters then one would need someone who as you said is very close to them and studied with them for a long time closely.
quite unlikely to find someone on a forum like this.

Incorrect. We have seasoned masters in many different arts posting here on MartialTalk, including the ninjutsu-related arts, and we are quite honoured to have them spend a bit of their day with us.

Please feel free to take a look around and use the search feature if need be....and be careful about making quick assumptions. :asian:

 

[Don Roley]

but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.

Ask five blind men to describe an elephant...........

And Bydand seems to have had a change of heart about this thread.

FYI- I have been training in Japan- occasionally with Hatsumi, for over a decade. So I tend to look at stuff by Hayes like the bit he did for the discovery channel with the viewpoint of what Hatsumi has been teaching. I really do not want to get into a discussion over who is better able to make judgements and statements even so.

 

[maccuda]

thanks for pointing that out Carol, that is good to know!

appricate your comments Don, i know this is a touchy subject but it doesnt have to be..
Opinions are personal anyway so if we have to descibe the "elephant" obviously they will differ.
Its just interesting how people who train in here To-shin do perceive their studies, as looking at the videos in the links. Makes it easier for people to see what people are talking about.

Its very good also to get your comments, haveing trained with Dr. Hatsumi and thus being able to discern what Mr Hayes is Doing /trying to get across or even alter.

 

[bydand]

Wasnt that the purpose of this topic? to see what people think the differences are without shooting at anyone?

Actually no it wasn't the topic. The topic as plainly stated in the opening post was to look at the similarities of the arts. Enough has been hammered about the differences elsewhere. We all know they are different arts, we all know To-Shin Do is a splinter off of the main "tree" of the Bujinkan. given that, there are bound to be elements that are close. Like the simplicity of the movements at first glance, then the deeper understanding of how even tiny changes in those "simple" movements leads to something totally different happening. That is what I was looking for.

I personally think Bujinkan or Budo tai jutsu as well as To-shin do are great, all of them, with all their differences and such.
As i said, they have the same roots and thats whats connects them.

I for one would like more people to say why they specifically chose for what direction and what they feel is different from their own experiences.

I would agree with this as well. As long as it doesn't turn into a P&M match. I for one had the choice made for me. The school I was with followed SKH when he went To-Shin Do and away from the Bujinkan. There were no other Bujinkan school within 6 or 8 hours from my location at the time, and I was just married and starting my own family. I wasn't going to pack up the family and move to an area I didn't like to begin with to follow training in a specfic art when the Instructors I knew and trusted were still the same people and didn't change a darn thing in our training routine. Do I regret the change? Honestly, sometimes I do. My dream has always been to go to Japan and take in a few classes from Hatsumi and his top level instructors; with the break, I don't feel as if that will ever come to pass. I respect the art, and more specifically, the man enough that without an active membership in the Bujinkan I wouldn't be pompous or crude enough to expect to be allowed that honor because my art is "Close" or "Shares a common root". I wish the tie to Hatsumi Soke hadn't been cut, but am in no position to heal, or mend that wound. I am in a spot (as we all are) to try to maintain positive relationships with those who I still consider brothers and sisters in the art. Do we do things the same right down the line still? No.

 

[maccuda]

Bydand, why couldnt you train with DR Hatsumi in Japan?
Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..
But i do see how you feel about it, i sometimes feel the same but same story about the dojo being close to home.

And apologies for stating the differences where you would rather look at the similarities. good point.

 

[bydand]

Bydand, why couldnt you train with DR Hatsumi in Japan?
Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..
But i do see how you feel about it, i sometimes feel the same but same story about the dojo being close to home.

And apologies for stating the differences where you would rather look at the similarities. good point.

Comes down to needing a current Bujinkan card to train there, and I don't have one and haven't for many years. I wouldn't try to get one at this juncture for the simple reason it wouldn't be "right" because I don't train with the Bujinkan anymore. I may be old fashioned, but it would go against my nature to obtain one just to go there to train a few classes, I would feel like a fraud the whole time I held it. Plus I figure, by the time I get to a position where I COULD afford to do such a trip, it may no longer be required.

I'm not even going to touch the topic of SKH still training with Hatsumi Soke, and hope nobody else does either. It is not the topic of this thread and should be addressed elsewhere if anybody wants to open that bees nest.

 

[Don Roley]

Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..

Oh gawd, everybody duck.

Please maccuda. Before you make statements like this, could you please look through some of the old threads and see what has been going on before you open up another can of worms?

Here is the Reader's Digest version.

Hayes has showed up for one training session every few years. He has made the trip to Japan, but only showed up at training once and did something else the rest of the time. The last time he showed up he was asked to go somewhere out of the general public eye by Hatsumi. Things did not go well there from what I hear. A few weeks later Hayes gave a glowing account of his training there on the internet and when hearing this, Hatsumi took the unprecented move of having his name publically taken down from the board of tenth dans that represent Bujinkan.

If you can add to this story with documented facts, please do so. But we have seen a lot of flame wars led by people that try to deny these basic facts without actually going to Hatsumi or anyone in Japan to see if what the thought went on actually did. We do not need more of the same.

If you want to avoid a problem and really can't back up what you say with well established accounts, please just let this matter go in this thread and in the future.

Edit- while I was tying this Bydand wrote,

I'm not even going to touch the topic of SKH still training with Hatsumi Soke, and hope nobody else does either. It is not the topic of this thread and should be addressed elsewhere if anybody wants to open that bees nest.

and I agree. I want to point out that what you wrote was wrong. There are other threads if you want to deal with this matter. I hope you will take the time to look things up and let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[saru1968]

maccuda, how simular do you see the seperate training of 'classical Ninjutsu' in Toshindo to your prior Bujinkan training?

Have you just graded in Toshindo or do you gain grades in both Toshindo & 'classical ninjutsu' and this Bujinkan grades?

How difficult is this to administer?

Its sounds confusing to me but i've never got a clear understanding about it.

Thanks.

 

[maccuda]

hmm thats not what i'm heard Don but you are right, lets not go there.

lets get back to the Similarities in the systems!

 

[bydand]

And Bydand seems to have had a change of heart about this thread.

Not really. Still wish it had faded into the mists of old threads, but it just keeps popping back up. :idunno:

As long as it does so, I'll be following it and hoping it keeps civil and ontrack.

 

[maccuda]

Saru,

you just grade in 1, the To-shin do system
there is some "classical" ninjutsu in it but thats not the primary concern.
Thats more for people who are interested in that part.
And how would you class classical ninjutsu? 12th century or 16th or 18th?

Basically you train the To-shin do system so thats where you grade in, this has nothing to do with Bujinkan grades.

The classical ninjutsu training we get is quite similar if not the same as in the Bujinkan, at least in my school and very interesting.

hope this makes sense?