TKD vs Muay Thai fight

[exile]

At the risk of upsetting someone here... how silly. I can't begin to imagine the theory behind that. (The flat earth I can, but not the arms down thing)

Yeah, it doesn't make sense... well, it actually might, if you look at TKD in terms of its symbolic use by Korean nationalists in the wake of the horrible Japanese occupation. Your national striking-based MA is karate? We got our version of karate from you? OK, well, by the time we finish it, it's not gonna look anything like what you bastards do. And not only that, mate, we're going to be an Olympic sport and you're not. That kind of thinking, understandable as it might be, leads you to hands-down foot tag and double points for on-target high kicks to the head. I think that all that is a big part of where the WTF style came from. ITF, well, remember Choi was primarily a soldier and saw TKD as having to be a battlefield-ready combat system for troops who might be engaging in CQ fighting without access to weapons or ammo. And based on the performance of ROK troops in the Korean and Vietnamese wars, you'd have to say he succeeded brilliantly. A lot of the divergence between the two organizations reflects that history, I think (nationalist promo from the official government org WTF, the military agenda originally set by Gen. Choi in his glory days after the Occupation that still resonates in the ITF).

So me and you both (and I imagine others here) agree that this guy was either NOT ITF or was a poorly trained one.... What the heck was he doing in the ring? Someone please tear off his badges before he gives us all a bad name?

I've seen many, many clips like this. I have no idea why someone doesn't tell these guys, don't get in the ring with this MT/Kyokushin/name-your-favorite-art fighter—they use all four limbs! This sort of thing is I suspect the main reason why you hear and read people talking so dismissively about TKD...

In that case then I would imagine that it's the guy himself, he should have thought about what he was going into and fully prepared for it.

Total credit to the MT guy for doing so! *Match to the MT man for using his noggin* I agree with the ref!

I agree. I just wish some of the WTF bigwigs spent a few hours watching clips like this sometime and began to think, hmmmm, this doesn't make us look that good.... but it's not going to happen, alas.

 

[Marginal]

So me and you both (and I imagine others here) agree that this guy was either NOT ITF or was a poorly trained one.... What the heck was he doing in the ring? Someone please tear off his badges before he gives us all a bad name?

If he's not ITF, then he probably shouldn't go into the ring wearing an ITF uniform. He is what he is. An ITF fighter who's at least a 4th dan.

The only real problem with his approach was that he was still mentally stuck using ITF sparring rules even after he got tripped the first few times. After training in a set sparring environment for years and years, coupled with the stress of the new situation, it's not all that shocking that he had trouble adapting though.

There's another TKD vs MT fight.

Another.

Another.

TKD"s not totally ineffective as the other clips'll show. Don't blame the WTF for an ITF guy doing poorly in one match. That's just silly.

 

[exile]

TKD"s not totally ineffective as the other clips'll show. Don't blame the WTF for an ITF guy doing poorly in one match. That's just silly.

My understanding is that ITF sparring used to be much different from WTF competition. If the guy is ITF, it could mean that the sparring styles are beginning to converge, in the direction `pioneered' by the WTF. Choi himself hated that kind of contest, at least based on some of his writings I've seen that touched on it; we owe its widespread practice to the WTF promotion of TKD as an Olympic sport. In a sense, it's true, it's no organization's fault that the guy fought the way he did and lost so badly; but in another sense, it reflects a problem with both organizations' approach to TKD, if the ITF is moving to copy the WTF's competitive profile.

 

[Andrew Green]

This first one was pretty one sided:

[yt]-JYrFN6En0w[/yt]

But that Muay Thai fighter looked like he'd never been in a ring before. Right at the beginning he is shown turning and cowering as the TKD guy throws punches, not a sign of a experienced fighter.

Still, those where some pretty cool kicks that landed.

Anyways, of those 3, the 3rd guy is by far the most impressive

 

[Shaderon]

TKD"s not totally ineffective as the other clips'll show. Don't blame the WTF for an ITF guy doing poorly in one match. That's just silly.

I'm not blaming WTF for anything, I'm saying the ITF guy should have stuck his brain in gear and watched for his opponants style and weaknesses.

If ITF and WTF are beginning to converge then good on them, maybe the best parts of both styles will come out on top and not just one swallowing the other up, but I do wish people would use their heads and read situations, not just stick to what they know. Sticking to what you know in an instance where a little versatility would help your odds is not wise in any situation.

 

[tellner]

I saw that clip and learned the backstory. The guy in the Thai boxing trunks wasn't a Thai boxer. He'd never studied it, never trained it. He was just wearing a set of cool-looking clothes.

 

[Shaderon]

I saw that clip and learned the backstory. The guy in the Thai boxing trunks wasn't a Thai boxer. He'd never studied it, never trained it. He was just wearing a set of cool-looking clothes.

*holds head in hands*

PLEASE tell me it was the same for the TKD guy? Please? At least it gives me hope that he didn't earn that uniform.

 

[exile]

I saw that clip and learned the backstory. The guy in the Thai boxing trunks wasn't a Thai boxer. He'd never studied it, never trained it. He was just wearing a set of cool-looking clothes.

Wait...Todd, which clip are you referring to—the most recent one posted or the OP clip? There are so many of them on the table at this point...

 

[tellner]

adept, I understand what you're saying, but in your attempt to be even-handed you are taking a few giant steps away from reality. Fighting is certainly fighting no matter what you call it, but if there were "just one martial art" like you say we would all be doing exactly the same stuff. There are different systems for learning how to fight and different mixes of techniques and tactics which create a taxonomy of things we call styles.

What you are saying is that if anyone could, in theory, do anything and add it to style X, so saying that style X and style Y are different is a meaningless distinction. That's like saying that a musician could pick up an instrument and play any selection of notes, so there's no difference between drumming from Mali and throat-singing from Central Asia or 1920s theremin music from Europe. It's simply not true. Yes, yes, if enough people who do style X change what is in style X but keep the name at some point the thing called style X changes.

That's not what we're talking about.

There's a pretty clear idea of what constitutes TKD and Muay Thai curriculum and the ranges of training methods and tactics which fall within a standard deviation or two of each. Part of that includes things that are mentioned or demonstrated but are not emphasised and things which are officially taught but not done in whatever training with real opposition or sparring that the systems engage in. Low kicks, punching to the head, elbows, knees and possibly the clinch absolutely fall into those categories for TKD as I am familiar with it. Spinning heel kicks, tornado kicks, axe kicks and so on would be similar in Muay Thai if they are taught at all.

Just looking at how the two fighters stand anyone with some experience could tell who was who if you stripped them naked. That goes double if they move.

 

[tellner]

Wait...Todd, which clip are you referring to—the most recent one posted or the OP clip? There are so many of them on the table at this point...

Sorry, yeah. The most recent one where the guy in the trunks covers up and runs away.

 

[Shaderon]

Sorry, yeah. The most recent one where the guy in the trunks covers up and runs away.

Ah, I can't see that one, my work firewall blocks it. I'm off home to log on and watch that one, I'll be back in a bit hopefully.

 

[exile]

exile, I understand what you're saying, but in your attempt to be even-handed you are taking a few giant steps away from reality. Fighting is certainly fighting no matter what you call it, but if there were "just one martial art" like you say we would all be doing exactly the same stuff. There are different systems for learning how to fight and different mixes of techniques and tactics which create a taxonomy of things we call styles.

What you are saying is that if anyone could, in theory, do anything and add it to style X, so saying that style X and style Y are different is a meaningless distinction.

??? Todd, I think you're seriously misreading me... I've never said anything like that. Of course there are different MAs, different systems for learning how to fight, as you put it. Where have I said that there's a single MA??

That's like saying that a musician could pick up an instrument and play any selection of notes, so there's no difference between drumming from Mali and throat-singing from Central Asia or 1920s theremin music from Europe. It's simply not true. Yes, yes, if enough people who do style X change what is in style X but keep the name at some point the thing called style X changes.



That's not what we're talking about.

There's a pretty clear idea of what constitutes TKD and Muay Thai curriculum and the ranges of training methods and tactics which fall within a standard deviation or two of each.

But this isn't the case at all. I'm baffled how you could derive this picture from what I'm saying. The following are historically documented facts about TKD:

(1) the original Kwans which constituted the direct ancestors of TKD were founded in every case by MAists who were trained in Okinawan/Japanese karate styles. Several of them obtained dan ranking directly from Gichin Funakoshi or his senior students in the Shotokan.

(2) The Kwan founders returned to Korea in the prewar period and founded their schools, teaching `Kong Soo Do' and `Tang Soo Do', both of which were literal translations of Kara te under its two different transliterations (China/empty hand). Byung Jik Ro called his school Song Moo Kwan, an almost literal translation into Korean of Shotokan (`Pine Tree (Training) House). The techs they taught were indistinguishable from Shotokan/Shudokan/Gojo Ryu techncially, with slight differences of emphasis.

(3) During the Korean War, Gen. Choi took TKD techs and adapted them for battlefield use, emphasising killing techniques and disarms of enemies by soldiers separated from their weapons or out of ammo. TKD was known and feared by the North Koreans, and later the Viet Cong during the Vietnamese War. If you like, I can give you documentation for all of these statements, including captured VC field directives indicating just how intimidated the VC field command was by the Koreans' H2H fighting ability.

(4) It was not until Gen. Choi fell from power and the ROK government established the WTF to replace Choi's ITF that TKD became associated with the combat-irrelevant foot-tag tourament competition techs it is now known for among sports fans. A lot of serious TKD practitioners know better, because we were trained under instructors who pass down the technical content of the KMA that was the platform for TKD. These techs aren't additions, as you seem to be implying. They are the techs that people like Byung Jik Ro, Lee Won Kuk and the other founders of modern KMAs brought back from Japan, trained in and taught to their senior students.

Part of that includes things that are mentioned or demonstrated but are not emphasised and things which are officially taught but not done in whatever training with real opposition or sparring that the systems engage in.

Systems don't engage in anything. Fighters do, and they do because of their training. What has happened in TKD is that originally present elements have been leeched out of it in the official Korean government effort over the past 40 years to transform TKD into a combat sport. Well, that's fine for them, but the technical repertoire of TKD—in the Song Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan and all the other school lineages—was established long before the Korean governement scrapped its `military' conception of TKD and replaced it with an Olympic sport. What you seem to be saying is, TKD is whatever the WTF decides to define it as. Sorry, but I see no reason to accept that position.

Low kicks, punching to the head, elbows, knees and possibly the clinch absolutely fall into those categories for TKD as I am familiar with it. Spinning heel kicks, tornado kicks, axe kicks and so on would be similar in Muay Thai if they are taught at all.

.

Wrong. Low kicks, punching to the head, elbows, knees, locks, throws, sweeps, etc. are part of the technical content of TKD as reflected in its hyungs and as taught to me and many other TKD practitioners by instructors who learned their arts from senior students of the original Kwans. So far as I know, the kicks you describe were never part of Muay Thai.

Just looking at how the two fighters stand anyone with some experience could tell who was who if you stripped them naked. That goes double if they move.

True, but irrelevant, since TKD is not the same thing sport TKD. You're saying it is. You're saying that since you think of sport TKD as TKD, that that's how it is for all practitioners, including those who learned the full technical content of the original combat-effective MA. This is, as I suggested earlier, equivalent to someone who denies that carved turns and stepping to adjust your line in a slalom aren't parts of alpine skiing technique because that person thinks of skiing as freestyle aerials. There is a huge technical history to TKD, and the late, specialized branch of it that is WTF sparring competition is only a very tiny portion of it. It's the best publicized portion of it... but does that have the slightest bearing on its content???

 

[tellner]

I'm sorry. I said "exile" when I meant "adept".

My very bad.

 

[exile]

I'm sorry. I said "exile" when I meant "adept".

My very bad.

Hey Todd, it's OK—I'm relieved—I thought one of us was going nuts, and there was a good chance it was me!! At a couple of weeks short of 60, one worries about these these things... mystery solved, that's the important thing!

cheers, E.

 

[zDom]

Thanks for posting the three clips of showing TKD effective.

I enjoyed them.

 

[Marginal]

This first one was pretty one sided:

[yt]-JYrFN6En0w[/yt]

But that Muay Thai fighter looked like he'd never been in a ring before. Right at the beginning he is shown turning and cowering as the TKD guy throws punches, not a sign of a experienced fighter.

Yeah, a lousy fight that's made the rounds on MT a few times before. Nobody in the TKD forum even beleived it was a credible match. Good fit vs the first clip tho. Inexperienced guy vs capable fighter.

Anyways, of those 3, the 3rd guy is by far the most impressive

Yeah. quite a few K-1 clips floating around now.

One more for fun. (The guy in the powder blue MT trunks is the TKD dude in this one.)