TKD vs Muay Thai fight

[Andrew Green]

Nothing with the hands kind of went for both of them. There was a no punches to the face rule, and if it was just the one round, body shots would likely not have been that damaging, even without gloves.

 

[bluemtn]

of not being too good at, or against, much else. So ironically, a good sport Taekwondo practitioner does not represent the art as a whole well when put up against anything other than another another Taekwondo opponent.

There's a lot more to Taekwondo then one usually sees in these things and I'd really like to see what would happen if a Taekwondo fighter trained more specifically for the purpose of sport-fighting agains other arts like this. Not that I think they would rulez or anything like that, but probably get a better showing than a lot of these "Taekwondo vs... " videos I see

I'm with him on this. In sport TKD, specifically sparring competition, a lot of techniques are left out- not just hand techs.

Thanks for sharing the video, Andrew. It was interesting.

 

[tellner]

It was darned close to a TKD rules match except for leg kicks and a couple minor things. And the MT guy was the better fighter. Power in kicks of no power in kicks looser rules (real punching, elbows, knees, clinch, etc.) would have turned it into a slaughter. The TKD guy has nothing to answer any of those and nothing but the same kicks to offer.

The Thai boxer also had much better appreciation of distance and followed up attacks and defenses by switching to offense. The TKD fighter, as is not unusual, would make an attack and get back into kicking range or defend, back up a bit and restart. Both of these put him behind the time.

It comes from the different approaches.

In TKD you want to stay outside or at kicking range. There isn't that much you can do on the inside.

In MT you are often kicking with the shin which brings you a little closer. Or you are prepared to follow up with middle-range tools (punching) or the Big Guns (elbows, knees) and go for the clinch. It encourages a closer fighting distance.

You'll notice that the Thai boxer didn't use the longer range kicks, the short foot jab and the long foot jab. That would be going against the other fighter's strengths.

 

[Last Fearner]

This video and thread should be titled "Taekwondo Tournament fighter vs Muay Thai fighter"

I don't care how many of these guys you parade out on the internet in their mismatched, poorly prepared performances, it has absolutely nothing to do with the art of Taekwondo, but displays a specific level of "Taekwondo tournament fighter" who is willing to enter these circus events without preparing for the differences in rules and fighting methods.

I dunno. I've seen a fair number of Muay Thai vs. Olympic TKD and Muay Thai vs. 'Traditional' TKD which is to say Muay Thai vs. Karate. The results are usually pretty much the same.

This comment is dangerously close to a "this style is better than that style" argument.

These videos are all the same. They are intended to imply that these MT fighters (or whomever else is up against a Taekwondoist) is Better because the referee raises their hand in their direction at the end of the match. I'm not going to get into that debate, but I will state what is the problem here.

First of all, it is never clear to me, or others who view these videos what exactly are the rules in this match. Is grabbing the leg allowed? Because one was doing it, and the other was not. Are knees and elbows, or punches allowed? Because I saw some attacks with knees, and other attempts at hand strikes, but not much of either. What targets are allowed or not allowed? What is the point scoring method? Are we counting the kicks that slap but do not damage, or knock the opponent down?

I think it was a poor showing on both fighters part, but typically people judge the Taekwondoists performance poorly because they do not understand what is happening, and the mixture of ring type competition does not mix well. The Taekwondoist was doing what he would ordinarily do in a tournament (and he definitely looked like a tournament fighter which is not the ultimate in representation of Taekwondo skill).

He played with minor kicks to set his opponent up. Most of those kicks that you might say had no power, were not intended to have power. They set up for the stronger kicks. The problem is that: 1. The Taekwondoist is used to being able to stick his foot out at his opponent for a distancing tool, and not having it grabbed (variation of rules and he did not adjust well to it). 2. The Taekwondoist is used to being able to involve in kicking exchanges without having his rear leg kicked out from under him. It happened several times in a row, and if this is allowed by rules, a good Taekwondoists can do the same, and can inflict some major damage. The problem is, most tournament fighters don't train for that rule, thus it is difficult for them to switch. I, on the other hand, would have no problem attacking the MT fighters legs, and I would be very successful at it! :ultracool I also know how to prevent them from kicking my legs, and making them suffer if they try! :mst:

3. The MT fighter does the same approach I have seen over and over in these type of clips. They stand dangerously too much facing front. They guard the sides of their head and upper body with their up-raised arms. Then they inch in - slowly, steadily - inch by inch as they move constantly toward the opponent. The Taekwondoists tend to move back, and jump around more for deception, distancing, and disguise of attacks. This works fine when you are fighting another Taekwondoists who is doing the same thing. What many of these "tournament" Taekwondo fighters don't understand is that you have to use the full range of Taekwondo skills in a slightly different approach against a still fighter.

These MT fighters work on your legs, and move in to close the distance. One would think, by these videos, that Taekwondoists can't kick legs, or fight at close range, but that is a bunch of nonsense! This particular Taekwondoist missed on a couple of potentially devastating spin side kicks, and one jump spin hook. The MT fighter did nothing to prevent the impact or avoid it and was fortunate that the other guy had poor aim. Then, the MT fighter took advantage of a rule variation and hooked the leg, which had already shot past him, with his hand. He often rushed and caused the Taekwondoist to be knocked down, or even just slipped and fell. I've had that happen to me in matches, and it doesn't mean the match is over, or that you should approach me when I'm on the ground! It shows the Taekwondoist was fighting a different kind of match, but nothing seemed to be a devastating blow to the Taekwondoist by the MT fighter either.

I saw nothing on the part of either fighter that qualified as a "good hit" or a defining moment when they "knocked the other person down." Near the end of the match, the Taekwondoist was using his slowly extended foot as a barrier once again (does not learn very quickly), and the MT guy grabs his ankle with both hands and holds it for awhile, then begins to drag it out forcefully right before the match ended. I'm thinking "what a foolish thing to do, and its too bad the Taekwondoist is not trained for this." There was a prime opportunity to nail the other guy in the head with a jump round house with your free leg. Very dangerous to grab a Taekwondoist's leg if they are not following a set of rules, and if they know what to do about it.

I don't know how much contact was allowed in this match since neither person was wearing any protective gear, and neither one hit very hard. Thus, I can conclude that the Taekwondoist was pulling his power which makes this kind of match like a cat versus a porcupine if you remove the porcupine's quills. In any event, I saw numerous occasions when the MT fighter was vulnerable, and the Taekwondoist simply did not respond. It was most definitely the fighters in this match, and not the "Art" and I have seen the same thing in virtually every one of these clips on the internet.

Consider that most of the Taekwondo participants paired up with these other "stylists" are not the best representatives of Taekwondo, and most are poorly prepared because they are obviously applying Taekwondo tournament fighting tactics to a match with different rules. Should they be able to adjust? Yes. Why don't they? God only knows, but I suspect because they are confident in what they know that has worked for them in the past, and not fully trained in the art of Taekwondo to make the switch against different opponents.

I think this is why it is good to see these clips out there, to remind part-time Taekwondoists and tournament fighters that you are limited in your hobby and your sport games. But it also gives a false impression to other Martial Artists, and novice, that this is an accurate representation of Taekwondo fighting skills - - Not by a long shot!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[tellner]

Granted it may be dangerously close, but I can't say anything else and remain honest. I have seen at least a dozen clips of TKD and Karate versus Muay Thai and a fair number of such matches in the flesh. I haven't seen it come out any other way except for a couple Kyokushin matches where the Karate had been severely modified until it was much closer to MT.

I've alluded to some of the technical reasons this might be so such as distance, rhythm, fighting measure and so on. It may also be that the Thai boxers' more rigorous, OK "brutal", training regimen tips the balance in ways that outweigh difference in technique. It may be that the sort of fight one is preparing for is different and that, given the rules and conditions, this favors the sort of training and tactics of a Thai boxer over a karateka or TKD practitioner. The observation stands. To say otherwise would be a lie. The interpretation is another matter entirely.

 

[Andrew Green]

I do have one thing to disagree with on this good TKD yet Bad TKD line of thinking, I do find it terribly inconsistant.

Had he altered his game plan and techniques to suit the fight, would he have still been doing TKD? No, at least not the form of TKD he had trained. If he used good TKD for a TKD match, then he used good TKD. It just happens that that variation on TKD does not adapt well to a different set of rules.

Guess its just one of my martial arts forum pet peeves, where every art is too be considered equal in all fields and it is just the practitioner that matters. It's not, under different rules, different things work.

Imagine trying to win a freestyle swimming race with butterfly, say the 2000 m? You'd be at a serious disadvantage. Or winning the Tour de France on a BMX bike, again, serious disadvantage.

Being really good at one type of fighting doesn't always translate to other styles. But that doesn't mean the style is at fault, or the practitioner is a poor example of the style in the environment. He was doing what he trained to do and what worked well in a TKD match for him, it just didn't work well under these rules.

Same as we can't tell the guy on the BMX that he was a poor example of BMX racing, he's probably pretty good at that. But it uses different tools and different strategies, different scoring systems, and different ways of winning.

If you put two guys, one TKD and one Muay thai in a ring, and have them both use there respecitve arts and the techniques and strategies from those arts, the ones that work for them in there own competitions, and have them try to hurt each other using there own tools, I think most of the time it will go down a lot like that.

Restrict it to TKD rules and I imagine it will go the other way. Switch it to wrestling rules and they will both look silly.

This fight was interesting because it largely restricted the techniques to a almost TKD set. It still allowed low kicks, and I believe catching a leg is not allowed in TKD?

But it was in a Muay Thai environment, and I assume using Muay Thai criteria for winning. So while the techniques of the Muay Thai fighter where restricted to bring it closer to TKD rules, the other rules where basically Muay Thai in nature.


Sort of a lets take away points for tricks and just have a tour de France guy race a BMX guy on a BMX track. Wonder who will win? Wonder who will be falling off his bike because its not suited for that environment?

 

[matt.m]

This video and thread should be titled "Taekwondo Tournament fighter vs Muay Thai fighter"

I don't care how many of these guys you parade out on the internet in their mismatched, poorly prepared performances, it has absolutely nothing to do with the art of Taekwondo, but displays a specific level of "Taekwondo tournament fighter" who is willing to enter these circus events without preparing for the differences in rules and fighting methods.



This comment is dangerously close to a "this style is better than that style" argument.

These videos are all the same. They are intended to imply that these MT fighters (or whomever else is up against a Taekwondoist) is Better because the referee raises their hand in their direction at the end of the match. I'm not going to get into that debate, but I will state what is the problem here.

First of all, it is never clear to me, or others who view these videos what exactly are the rules in this match. Is grabbing the leg allowed? Because one was doing it, and the other was not. Are knees and elbows, or punches allowed? Because I saw some attacks with knees, and other attempts at hand strikes, but not much of either. What targets are allowed or not allowed? What is the point scoring method? Are we counting the kicks that slap but do not damage, or knock the opponent down?

I think it was a poor showing on both fighters part, but typically people judge the Taekwondoists performance poorly because they do not understand what is happening, and the mixture of ring type competition does not mix well. The Taekwondoist was doing what he would ordinarily do in a tournament (and he definitely looked like a tournament fighter which is not the ultimate in representation of Taekwondo skill).

He played with minor kicks to set his opponent up. Most of those kicks that you might say had no power, were not intended to have power. They set up for the stronger kicks. The problem is that: 1. The Taekwondoist is used to being able to stick his foot out at his opponent for a distancing tool, and not having it grabbed (variation of rules and he did not adjust well to it). 2. The Taekwondoist is used to being able to involve in kicking exchanges without having his rear leg kicked out from under him. It happened several times in a row, and if this is allowed by rules, a good Taekwondoists can do the same, and can inflict some major damage. The problem is, most tournament fighters don't train for that rule, thus it is difficult for them to switch. I, on the other hand, would have no problem attacking the MT fighters legs, and I would be very successful at it! :ultracool I also know how to prevent them from kicking my legs, and making them suffer if they try! :mst:

3. The MT fighter does the same approach I have seen over and over in these type of clips. They stand dangerously too much facing front. They guard the sides of their head and upper body with their up-raised arms. Then they inch in - slowly, steadily - inch by inch as they move constantly toward the opponent. The Taekwondoists tend to move back, and jump around more for deception, distancing, and disguise of attacks. This works fine when you are fighting another Taekwondoists who is doing the same thing. What many of these "tournament" Taekwondo fighters don't understand is that you have to use the full range of Taekwondo skills in a slightly different approach against a still fighter.

These MT fighters work on your legs, and move in to close the distance. One would think, by these videos, that Taekwondoists can't kick legs, or fight at close range, but that is a bunch of nonsense! This particular Taekwondoist missed on a couple of potentially devastating spin side kicks, and one jump spin hook. The MT fighter did nothing to prevent the impact or avoid it and was fortunate that the other guy had poor aim. Then, the MT fighter took advantage of a rule variation and hooked the leg, which had already shot past him, with his hand. He often rushed and caused the Taekwondoist to be knocked down, or even just slipped and fell. I've had that happen to me in matches, and it doesn't mean the match is over, or that you should approach me when I'm on the ground! It shows the Taekwondoist was fighting a different kind of match, but nothing seemed to be a devastating blow to the Taekwondoist by the MT fighter either.

I saw nothing on the part of either fighter that qualified as a "good hit" or a defining moment when they "knocked the other person down." Near the end of the match, the Taekwondoist was using his slowly extended foot as a barrier once again (does not learn very quickly), and the MT guy grabs his ankle with both hands and holds it for awhile, then begins to drag it out forcefully right before the match ended. I'm thinking "what a foolish thing to do, and its too bad the Taekwondoist is not trained for this." There was a prime opportunity to nail the other guy in the head with a jump round house with your free leg. Very dangerous to grab a Taekwondoist's leg if they are not following a set of rules, and if they know what to do about it.

I don't know how much contact was allowed in this match since neither person was wearing any protective gear, and neither one hit very hard. Thus, I can conclude that the Taekwondoist was pulling his power which makes this kind of match like a cat versus a porcupine if you remove the porcupine's quills. In any event, I saw numerous occasions when the MT fighter was vulnerable, and the Taekwondoist simply did not respond. It was most definitely the fighters in this match, and not the "Art" and I have seen the same thing in virtually every one of these clips on the internet.

Consider that most of the Taekwondo participants paired up with these other "stylists" are not the best representatives of Taekwondo, and most are poorly prepared because they are obviously applying Taekwondo tournament fighting tactics to a match with different rules. Should they be able to adjust? Yes. Why don't they? God only knows, but I suspect because they are confident in what they know that has worked for them in the past, and not fully trained in the art of Taekwondo to make the switch against different opponents.

I think this is why it is good to see these clips out there, to remind part-time Taekwondoists and tournament fighters that you are limited in your hobby and your sport games. But it also gives a false impression to other Martial Artists, and novice, that this is an accurate representation of Taekwondo fighting skills - - Not by a long shot!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

I could not agree more. I know people who would devastate me in sparring, I destroy them in technique or poomsea. I am all about the art of Tae Kwon Do. I know how to fight, I did enough of it in the Marines.

For that matter, if someone is used to a set of rules then they are going to be better contestants to the ruleset over someone who isn't.

My question would be the following: Would Ernie Reyes grab Mike Swain's lapel? Most likely not. Just an example. Plus, these videos all involve a ruleset and contest. I don't know if the TKDist is a great TKD fighter, he wasn't contesting at olympic or point sparring rules.

 

[bluemtn]

It's hard to tell what the rules were in the match. TKD'r was trying to keep the MT'r back, but kept having his leg grabbed, and quite a few other things that have been listed in earlier posts. An interesting video, but it really didn't do either art justice by not showing more. It wasn't a long fight, for one, and it looked limited.

 

[patrick22]

i had to agree with everyone else about the guy using tkd. if you kinda look at it he dosent look to confident arguing with the muay tai guy when he knocks him down and worrying about his form. i think tkd concentrates themselves to much on form than anything else, becuas in tkd isnt form everything? but ya he looked like he had to much on his mind to me.

 

[Marginal]

Had he altered his game plan and techniques to suit the fight, would he have still been doing TKD? No, at least not the form of TKD he had trained. If he used good TKD for a TKD match, then he used good TKD. It just happens that that variation on TKD does not adapt well to a different set of rules.

Well, is that really any different than Heath Herring's first UFC outing? Herring was obviously planning to work from no activity = a stand up rule, and never he got that stand up. So he looked terrible on the ground as a result. If he had adapted, and say, done something on the ground, he wouldn't have been really fighting. (Which is what Heath said at the end of the fight, so I guess there's no cognitive disonance there.)

The good vs bad here also stems from the fragmented training TKD routinely offers. What tends to ultimately gain emphasis is the stuff that pops up in tournaments. That tends to draw the attention even though the other elements are trained, but not in a live sparring context, which makes those concepts harder to apply and even, remember under heavy stress situations. The techniques are there. They're just not routinely used. If the sparring ruleset's expanded so those techniques are trained in a live situation, it would still be TKD. Saying that adapting TKD to be more effective makes in not TKD is self-defeating. Makes any growth to the art's public presentation seem lose-lose.

 

[exile]

The techniques are there. They're just not routinely used. If the sparring ruleset's expanded so those techniques are trained in a live situation, it would still be TKD. Saying that adapting TKD to be more effective makes in not TKD is self-defeating. Makes any growth to the art's public presentation seem lose-lose.

I'd like to expand on Marginal's comments, which I think capture a key insight. Do you think of these as core TKD techniques?

(i) jointlocks and throws;
(ii) traps and elbow strikes to the head;
(iii) low kicks to set up hand/arm-based finishing techs, like head twists (a nicer expression than `neck break'...)

No? You should. They correspond to realistic bunkai for hyung elements that turn up repeatedly in TKD patterns. If people drilled and trained (under suitably realistic conditions) all the nasty hand-based techs that `classical' TKD offers via its inventory of patterns, nobody in his or her right mind would be uttering a peep about TKD as an ineffective game of `foot-tag'. And there are lots more where (i)-(iii) came from. Remember, originally—and for many of us, still—TKD is Korean karate.

In the end, the art isn't only what you choose to train, it's all the other technical resources that are available to train if you seek them out. It's TKD's curse that as a widely practiced Olympic sport, people are decreasingly likely to seek out its seriously unpleasant combat version, of which the sport represents—so far as street combat is concerned—a sanitized, not to say neutered version. On its own terms, Olympic TKD is fine. But in a close-quarters conflict with a dangerous assailant, the industrial-strength version is the one you want...

 

[tellner]

I'd have to argue that they are not core elements of TKD in that they aren't practiced much compared to the Art's impressive array of high kicks. They aren't often taught as techniques for use in practice rather than in theory. The tactics for using them are not stressed in any TKD class I've been in or by any teacher I've talked to.

What is in the forms and what is in the Art as it is taught and as its exponents fight can be very different things.

When I did Kajukenbo/WHKD we learned lots of weapons forms. You could say that the sword, the spear, the staff and the quan do were essential elements of the Art. But it would not be accurate. We didn't train to use them. The techniques and core skills were not part of the way we fought in the same way that knife and golok are inseperable parts of the Silat I do now. The backfist and hammerfist are still taught to every boxer who works a speed bag. Boxers don't use them in the ring. It's not their forte, and it will get them disqualified.

 

[Adept]

I'd have to argue that they are not core elements of TKD in that they aren't practiced much compared to the Art's impressive array of high kicks. They aren't often taught as techniques for use in practice rather than in theory. The tactics for using them are not stressed in any TKD class I've been in or by any teacher I've talked to.

To be honest, I found that limiting an art or style by the techniques it contains only really serves to expediate conversation.

By that I mean that when I say TKD or BJJ, you know what I am talking about.

In terms of practice, saying that this or that is not part of this or that art is, frankly, a waste of time.

To put it into perspective, I didn't see a TKD and Muay Thai fight. I saw a fight between two martial artists, and one was better than the other.

Now, this isn't to say that all arts are created equal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think what I'm saying is that there is only one art, and the ways in which we practice it vary from person to person, and group to group.

I guess it really boils down to the same thing in the end. The tactics and techniques of the TKD fighter didn't allow him to get the job done. The problem arises when we get caught up about looking for ways to fix this percieved problem solely within the scope of TKD (which, as far as I'm concerned, is an artificial term anyway) and discarding other techniques or tactics because they aren't TKD, or debating about what should be or shouldn't be considered TKD.

Who cares what is or isn't TKD?! Just pick the best techniques or tactics to get the job done...

 

[exile]

I'd have to argue that they are not core elements of TKD in that they aren't practiced much compared to the Art's impressive array of high kicks. They aren't often taught as techniques for use in practice rather than in theory. The tactics for using them are not stressed in any TKD class I've been in or by any teacher I've talked to.

What is in the forms and what is in the Art as it is taught and as its exponents fight can be very different things.

When I did Kajukenbo/WHKD we learned lots of weapons forms. You could say that the sword, the spear, the staff and the quan do were essential elements of the Art. But it would not be accurate. We didn't train to use them. The techniques and core skills were not part of the way we fought in the same way that knife and golok are inseperable parts of the Silat I do now. The backfist and hammerfist are still taught to every boxer who works a speed bag. Boxers don't use them in the ring. It's not their forte, and it will get them disqualified.

Following up on Adept's comment in his previous post, I have to say that I study and teach these techniques as integral parts of the combat apps of TKD in our dojang, I've been tested on them, and we work on them in training. There is moreover a substantial literature now on them as inherent in the TKD hyungs, which are sequences of combat scenarios illustrating the principles of the fighting system (TKD and a karate are identical in the latter respect, it's fair to say); Stuart Anslow and Simon O'Neil both have books available which do the kind of bunkai for TKD hyungs that Abernethy, Clark, Kane & Wilder, Burgar and a number of others have been doing for Okinawan/Japanese karate for much of the past decade. We teach high kicks exclusively as balance exercise. And this approach to TKD techs comes directly through our lineage, Song Moo Kwan, which historically has most strongly identified itself as the Korean variant of Shotokan karate. Our `down blocks' are taught as, in effect, a sequence of two elbow strikes (the `chamber' plus the intial `down' motion) followed by a forearm strike/hammerfist; `rising blocks' are forearm strikes to the throat, and so on. Kicks are low and aimed to inflict significant damage on the side of the knee, or groin, or to the assailant's lowered head.

This is not the most familiar picture of TKD, but it is based solidly and entirely on the technical toolkit available in the Palgwes and dan sequence patterns we follow, and is part of the common legacy of the kwan era in KMAs that gave rise to TKD in its current variety. TKD isn't restricted to Olympic sparring TKD, any more than alpine skiing consists solely of aerials and `freestyle'.

 

[Odin]

I find it quite disrespectful that no one here has credited the muay thai fighter for actually winning the fight.

SO what if the TKD guy was an Olympic fighter, at the end of the day he decided to take the fight knowing it wasnt using olympic rules, surly he trained for this fight knowing it was full contact i doubt very much the fight organizers just turned up at a tkd gym the morining of the fight and said 'hey how would you like to fight a Muay thai fighter tonight!'' be serious.
Its the TKD guys fault he lost he should have prepared better, to me it looked like he put far to much faith in his art rather then himself.

 

[Shaderon]

I agree that the TKD guy didn't look like an ITF fighter altough I don't know what a sport fighter looks like in the ring yet, I've seen ITF coloured belts spar against each other (including cross-trained ones who USE their cross training in sparring) much better than that.

It sounds disrespectful to his rank by me, but to be brutally honest, he did look unprepared and the kicks were weak, he should have been knocking the other guy back at least a bit with them stomach kicks but the MT fighter didn't look like he'd even been kicked most of the time. Our 2nd kups can throw someone back a few steps with a controlled kick to a pad, I'd love to see what they could do in a fight.

Yes credit to the MT fighter for winning, but as I don't know MT I can only remark on what I do know and that is that the TKD guy's style was samey and predictable, we are taught to vary it, watch the opponant, look for gaps in the armour and BLOCK! I can't even remember seeing the TKD guy doing an effective body guard at any time!!! Maybe he was tired but that's no excuse.

 

[Cirdan]

I`m really not into the sports side of the arts but.... where is the TKDist`s guard?

 

[Shaderon]

I`m really not into the sports side of the arts but.... where is the TKDist`s guard?

Exactly!

 

[exile]

the TKD guy's style was samey and predictable, we are taught to vary it, watch the opponant, look for gaps in the armour and BLOCK! I can't even remember seeing the TKD guy doing an effective body block at any time!!! Maybe he was tired but that's no excuse.

No, it's not tiredness—believe it or not, that's how they spar in WTF/Olympic-style competition. It's got no connection whatever with sparring styles in other arts (who in his right mind keeps his hands down, apart from WTF???), let alone with any rational approach to self-defense in a seriously violent street attack.

TKD competition is a very specialized and artificial offshoot of the MA. Maybe people don't realize this of when they think of TKD. But that doesn't change the fact that TKD's technical base—encoded in its hyungs and readable by anyone who takes the trouble to learn how to compile out the forms into subsequences of moves following realistic combat principle, and which it shares with other karate styles—is way more diverse, and much more oriented to hand than foot techs, than its WTF sport manifestion reflects. Majority opinion among those who don't do TKD can't really count here; at one time, most people believed that the earth was flat.

 

[Shaderon]

No, it's not tiredness—believe it or not, that's how they spar in WTF/Olympic-style competition. It's got no connection whatever with sparring styles in other arts (who in his right mind keeps his hands down, apart from WTF???), let alone with any rational approach to self-defense in a seriously violent street attack.

TKD competition is a very specialized and artificial offshoot of the MA. Maybe people don't realize this of when they think of TKD. But that doesn't change the fact that TKD's technical base—encoded in its hyungs and readable by anyone who takes the trouble to learn how to compile out the forms into subsequences of moves following realistic combat principle, and which it shares with other karate styles—is way more diverse, and much more oriented to hand than foot techs, than its WTF sport manifestion reflects. Majority opinion among those who don't do TKD can't really count here; at one time, most people believed that the earth was flat.

At the risk of upsetting someone here... how silly. I can't begin to imagine the theory behind that. (The flat earth I can, but not the arms down thing)

So me and you both (and I imagine others here) agree that this guy was either NOT ITF or was a poorly trained one.... What the heck was he doing in the ring? Someone please tear off his badges before he gives us all a bad name?

In that case then I would imagine that it's the guy himself, he should have thought about what he was going into and fully prepared for it.

Total credit to the MT guy for doing so! *Match to the MT man for using his noggin* I agree with the ref!