Timing

[Bigshadow]

However being quicker or faster may tell me you are conditioned, fit, and practiced. Hence quicker, faster and right on... time. Cleaning up wasted motion such as winging elbows could also be percieved as trying to be faster. This "trying" would also put you closer to the mark and increase your timing.
Sean

I think timing is also determined by the tempo/rythm of the engagement. Being to soon may put you at a disadvantage where a second or two longer could have been advantageous. trying to be quicker/faster is analogous to rushing into something. If you don't let the situation unfold naturally with the rythm of the situation, you may rush into some place you don't want to be. Not only that, being too soon also gives away your intentions.

Just my thoughts. Survival doesn't necessarily require vast amounts of speed and strength.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Excuse my stubbornness, but you are limiting timing to a perceptual fitness issue when the word timing would also include your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual fitness. You imply trying is a negative trait, but when you include all of the cognitive a physical aspects of timing (dealing in time) trying does not have to be bad. Trying too hard does represent a lack of fitness somewhere and some overcompensation on one end will effect things on another, but we all struggle. I know what you are trying to say but timing is much bigger than matching someones rythm.
Sean

 

[Bigshadow]

I know what you are trying to say but timing is much bigger than matching someones rythm.
Sean

I agree with that.

Timing <> rythm
Timing <> Speed
Timing <> strength

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with that.

Timing <> rythm
Timing <> Speed
Timing <> strength

:asian:

Timing<>cooking
Timing<>Breathing
Timing<>Comedy
Timing<>Rifle Qualification
Timing<>driving...

I think I get it, but explain timing and strength. Once you do you'll find it aids timing, just as rythm aids timing.
Sean

 

[jbclinic]

i think we can all agree timing is first come first served

 

[muffin_cup_of_death]

This is a pretty simple topic, yet it seems you all have gotten way too technical with it. "Simplicity is simply to simplify". Anyway, Timing is key to properly executing, AND connecting at the correct moment to maximize damage: hence if an attacker is in mid-swing with a hook punch, and you catch him as he anticipates his own completion, it is much more damaging as they are completely off guard, and cannot possibly adapt as they have commited to their attack. I have seen this, and it has happened to me before when I was a less experienced fighter. Another good example is the stop kick...which we discussed in another thread, where you use a kick to the attackers lead leg, knee, shin, groin, stomach, (low targets) as they attempt to close the distance with an attack. Also, timing is just instinctively KNOWING when you can connect at that specific moment, and when your chances of connecting are low due to many variables such as range, opponents position/posture, etc. I better stop, as I may make this technical myself. I think we all get the drift on this subject though. Good one.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Very interesting discussion guys!

I see what you're getting at Rich, but also... in training you can train at different Tempo totally independant from anything else, but when engaged with another person you sort of lead by your tempo....but it IS in relation to theirs. Take for instance the Stick work of the FMA's. You may train a drill in the air in one way with one tempo or another, but then when you're training that drill with your partner you either match or just barely edge out their tempo...so that IF they lag or IF one of your hits to their arm or stick proved especially disruptive....then you can continue your own tempo by altering one of the strokes to be at a different target instead of the stick or arm... mayber further in like the torso, neck or head..... THEN you re-match their tempo back in the pace of the drill. In this way that one stroke would be more of an insert or what a drummer would call a "Fill".
Just something to think about.......

Your Brother
John

Yes I agree.

In a standard six count you train with just a stick. Then you add in two more strikes on each side so it becomes a 10 count drill. Later one may drop the two on their side in effect making it an 8 count drill. This changes the tempo and the feel of the drill.

Later one can now start adding in left hand counters from your "Block" positions, so it becomes block, left hand counter, right hand stick attack for the template.

So, I understand your points as it was what I was trying to say. Yet if you do not know when insert the left hand, or when to change the pattern to the next pattern then one is locked into the pattern or playing catch up to the others tempo as you stated.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Mmm&#8230; my thoughts.

• Rhythm: moving at a set speed. In drills, freestyle, and fights all parties often have same rhythm (most of us have probably seen this)
• Broken rhythm: having no set or apparent rhythm. Also a good way to screw with your opponent (experience)
• Rhythm change: changing your rhythm in relation to your opponent. Another good way to mess with your opponent (experience)
• Speed: moving quickly. Can be good, can be bad (experience)
• Strength: muscular strength: looks good to Rockies, but is normally useless
  • Explosive strength: normally not apparent, but very useful in a fight (experience)
  • Mental strength: 95% of the strength you will actually need in a fight (experience)
• Timing: be able to see a target, move to hit it, and then do all before your opponent has time to see it, and defend against it.

My experience with rhythm and timing:
If you can truly master both these aspects of fighting, you will almost certainly win. I have actually been timed and rhythmed (I know its not a word, but try to follow) into a sidekick to my head.
Broken rhythm is a concept taught in Coung Nhu. From what I understand it is also used in most styles of Mantis Kung Fu. Basically move, move, move, stand, move, stand, attack, defend, move and attack. Just given you a quick little general idea. I have used it against another Coung Nhu student. The response I got? Stud there confused until AFTER I had punched him in the head a few times.
Rhythm change speaks for it self. I once used it against another Coung Nhu student (1st Dan in tae kwon do, by the way). We were using the same pace, a kinda 1-2-1 thing. There was an anime theme song in back round, I adjusted and she stud there wide eyed, and slack jawed. Then her stomach got in the way of my round kick. Then her head got in the way of my chain punch.
As for speed and strength, you have my thoughts. And it is based on what I seen and experienced in sparring, Randori, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, Boxe Franciase (French kick boxing), Savate (also French kick boxing), San Shou, Muay Thai, and MMA fights. As well as actual fights. Having been in actual fights. Like the ones were I could be really hurt, not some UFC thing with rules.

Sweet Brighit Bless Your Blade,

John

 

[KenpoEMT]

Would you say that tempo and strength alone can over-come an opponent?
The speed and power of the mythical "street-fighter" comes to mind.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I dont find strength that useful most of the time. It's called Aiki-ha, the theory of none resitence to force.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[Marginal]

The word "timing" is apparently subject to individual interpretation.

Apparently so. Just in the TKD forum alone, I've been told it's everything from F=MA to some strange word that means everything, while having no meaning of its own.

I've always thought of timing as when to do something. Usually comes up in the context of counterstrikes. If you're timing someone's punches, you're looking to counter in between the cadence for example. In that sense, if you have excellent timing, it doesn't really matter how fast/slow you are because you're using your opponent's commitment agaisnt them. They're in no position to block etc because they're doing something else.

Strength, speed, rhythm can contribute to timing, but they have different words for those concepts for a reason.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Here's something interesting for EPAK regarding timing:

From Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo (pg 127):

"TIMING - Is the sophistication and punctuation of rhythm."