Question about a technique against a tackle

[CB2379]

Hi Everyone,
Yesterday I learned a technique named Intercepting the Ram, which is a technique against an attempted tackle in which the person ultimately has made contact is attempted to wrap his arm around you.

The first part of the technique calls for the defender to step to the side and raise the right leg to crush his chest while taking the right fist and hammering the back of the neck.

I am somewhat concerned about whether going on one foot while someone charges you will cause more harm for the defender because it might throw them off balance. I know we are taught to drop our weight and with out knees locked but I think that as someone charges you with full force, taking a slight step away and raising your leg could hurt you more then them.

Does anyone have any insight on this so I can take these suggestions to my class tomorrow?

Thanks,
Chuck

 

[rmcrobertson]

My suggestions would be that:

1. Put that first hammer-fist into the attacker's left kidney, not the back of their neck, so that after the strike you'll have the forearm to check down on their back;

2. Use that one-legged stance only transitionally, so that as the attacker shoves you back the move into a left neutral bow with a left overhead elbow becomes easier;

3. Make sure you get a determined dummy who'll enforce the attack and try to run you over; I had trouble with this technique for years, until it was pointed out that without a determined attacker, the technique ind3eed doesn't make a lot of sense;

4. Maybe look at the different ways that, "Intercepting," teaches you to get off-line and respond to a front tackle, including using that left forearm to, "guide," the attacker where you want them.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ceicei]

I believe there is one move before the kneeing move in that technique, "Intercepting the Ram". The way I learned it was with a "body parry" (similar to the first move of "Intellectual Departure" technique). This helps set it up for the simultaneous knee/downward hammerfist before doing the downard elbow strike.

If you don't understand what I mean by "body parry", I will explain further.

- Ceicei

 

[Rainman]

Hi Everyone,
Yesterday I learned a technique named Intercepting the Ram, which is a technique against an attempted tackle in which the person ultimately has made contact is attempted to wrap his arm around you.

The first part of the technique calls for the defender to step to the side and raise the right leg to crush his chest while taking the right fist and hammering the back of the neck.

I am somewhat concerned about whether going on one foot while someone charges you will cause more harm for the defender because it might throw them off balance. I know we are taught to drop our weight and with out knees locked but I think that as someone charges you with full force, taking a slight step away and raising your leg could hurt you more then them.

Does anyone have any insight on this so I can take these suggestions to my class tomorrow?

Thanks,
Chuck

Don't be concerned about moving into an attack. It takes some time to get used to but stick with it. I believe you step into towards 1:30, this does 2 things. One you have moved yourself off his line of attack therefore taking some of his power away. Two you are now in a better angle to attack with the Knee to the solar plexus and hamerfist to the base of the skull. These two strikes are designed to take the opponent out. When the targets are hit (and I mean accurately) with medium force, the opponent will be stunned, hard and accurate he will be out and possibley not breathing regularly... use caution and resist using the knee to the face... don't want teeth stuck in your knee.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

So far I think Chuck you are getting some very interesting and useful advice!

We take our first step to 11 with the left leg, and the target as I was taught is the right knee to the face as you do a right hammer to the base of the neck. These strikes are simultaneous. It is very interesting to compare the differences here and certainly worth exploring.

1. Put that first hammer-fist into the attacker's left kidney, not the back of their neck, so that after the strike you'll have the forearm to check down on their back;

Interesting target. Where do you take your first step Robert?

2. Use that one-legged stance only transitionally, so that as the attacker shoves you back the move into a left neutral bow with a left overhead elbow becomes easier;

3. Make sure you get a determined dummy who'll enforce the attack and try to run you over; I had trouble with this technique for years, until it was pointed out that without a determined attacker, the technique ind3eed doesn't make a lot of sense

Agreed on both counts...the attacker is continuing in, and we practice it like as if he is rushing and continues to follow in in three directions as the move flows along. I felt it didn't make sense for a long time as well, and because of that have worked it many many times. A determined attacker is key .

4. Maybe look at the different ways that, "Intercepting," teaches you to get off-line and respond to a front tackle, including using that left forearm to, "guide," the attacker where you want them.

Yes I think that is a great way to look at it as you are getting off-line of the low charge (tackle) from 12:00. The way we are taught we use two open palm checks to guide our attacker. The first one is immediately after the hammer...your right hand checks at their right shoulder holding them back for the execution of the left elbow to the spine and the second one comes after the left elbow. The left hand guides the left side of the head with an open palm as your body pivots towards 9:00 for the final move.

If you don't understand what I mean by "body parry", I will explain further.

Ceicei we don't do a body parry, but it'd be great to hear your explanation if you have time to share!

One you have moved yourself off his line of attack therefore taking some of his power away. Two you are now in a better angle to attack with the Knee to the solar plexus and hamerfist to the base of the skull.

Hi Rainman..which leg are you stepping with to start the technique?

These two strikes are designed to take the opponent out. When the targets are hit (and I mean accurately) with medium force, the opponent will be stunned, hard and accurate he will be out and possibly not breathing regularly... use caution and resist using the knee to the face... don't want teeth stuck in your knee

Good point about the teeth...that'd be nasty. In working this move a lot in our teaching class I found the most helpful thing to work on with the charging was using the checks - controlling his movement and both times that we step back it's into a twist so that we are able to unwind for the left elbow to the spine and also unwind as we do the mastoid punch and heel to the solar plexus or groin. So the unwinds with the checks (help keep the move tight) and combined with a determined dummy it becomes so much clearer!

 

[pete]

Does anyone have any insight on this so I can take these suggestions to my class tomorrow? - cb2379

think about the specific nature of the attack, (ie, range and distance) and your first response... in the words of little richard "gonna have some fun tonite. wooo"

pete.

 

[MisterMike]

My suggestions would be that:


2. Use that one-legged stance only transitionally, so that as the attacker shoves you back the move into a left neutral bow with a left overhead elbow becomes easier;

CB2379,

This is a result we were taught to expect as well. The one-legged stance will have a bracing angle when delivering the knee strike, but most likely you will get pushed back into a left neutral bow.

 

[mhouse]

I don't have an American Kenpo background but I do have a question on the setup of the technique.

If the attacker is coming at you for a tackle with the ultimate goal of wrapping their arms around you, it seems that stepping out of the line of the attack would be difficult. Don't you run the risk of getting caught in one of the out stretched arms? It would seem that if you are close enough to knee the chest and strike the back of the neck (or kidney) you would be in reach of the arms.

I don't have a technique against this particular attack so I'm very interested to hear how this one works.

 

[MisterMike]

I don't have an American Kenpo background but I do have a question on the setup of the technique.

If the attacker is coming at you for a tackle with the ultimate goal of wrapping their arms around you, it seems that stepping out of the line of the attack would be difficult. Don't you run the risk of getting caught in one of the out stretched arms? It would seem that if you are close enough to knee the chest and strike the back of the neck (or kidney) you would be in reach of the arms.

I don't have a technique against this particular attack so I'm very interested to hear how this one works.

In Intercepting the Ram, you stay pretty much in line with the attacker and "let" him get his arms around you. The knee strike is the major move that should take the wind out of his sails.

It is followed by a hammerfist strike to the kidney and an elbow strike to the spine.....among other followups to the facial area.

In other Ram techniques, as we refer to them, you step to the side and let one arm have you, such as Broken Ram, which hints at what happens to that arm.

All of the techniques require a good "foundation" in the Kenpo stances or you will be off balanced. Typically the Ram techniques are taught at the intermediate to advanced levels, but every school is different.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I don't have an American Kenpo background but I do have a question on the setup of the technique.

If the attacker is coming at you for a tackle with the ultimate goal of wrapping their arms around you, it seems that stepping out of the line of the attack would be difficult. Don't you run the risk of getting caught in one of the out stretched arms? It would seem that if you are close enough to knee the chest and strike the back of the neck (or kidney) you would be in reach of the arms.

I don't have a technique against this particular attack so I'm very interested to hear how this one works.

Sounds good Mister Mike I agree about the good foundation in stances...Here's the way I know it... you are stepping and issuing the knee to the face and the hammer at the same time. They are coming in at you in a low charge, so their head is down and leading the way in. You are side stepping but also meeting their action with your strikes. And as Rainman points out if done correctly with even medium force it will stun your attacker. It's the element of surprise as well, as a charging person will be expecting to move you back for a possible takedown, instead you are moving in on their tackle and by slightly side stepping it in the transitional one legged stance with immediate strikes you negate or lessen their forward momentum. If the first strikes fail they continue in and by stepping back in a twist and checking their right shoulder you are able to unwind as they follow in again and then land the left elbow to the spine as your weight settles from the unwind...If they continue to follow you in after the elbow to the spine your left hand reaches around the left side of their face and checks guiding them as you step back in a twist towards 9:00 with your left leg. You unwind to face 9:00 and you do a right vertical punch to their left mastoid and at the same time your right heel comes up to strike their groin which is now behind you.

I'm going to try it with the different targets. I hope it makes sense mhouse. See what you think!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Try stepping to 11:30 as the knee comes up.

I agree that the targets are adaptable. However, in the base technique, the knee goes to the center of mass and the hammer to the kidney, not the head: the point, I'd argue, is to jump off-line and to the left of the charge.

The second strike is to the base of the neck, or between the shoulders with an elbow, which fits a little better than a hammer and allows dropping the forearm around the neck to, "guide," the attacker.

Again, the strikes are of course adaptable. But I'd recommend learning the technique in the ideal phase first, at least.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Try stepping to 11:30 as the knee comes up.

I agree that the targets are adaptable. However, in the base technique, the knee goes to the center of mass and the hammer to the kidney, not the head: the point, I'd argue, is to jump off-line and to the left of the charge.

The second strike is to the base of the neck, or between the shoulders with an elbow, which fits a little better than a hammer and allows dropping the forearm around the neck to, "guide," the attacker.

Again, the strikes are of course adaptable. But I'd recommend learning the technique in the ideal phase first, at least.

Thanks Robert :asian:

 

[CB2379]

hi everyone,
Thank you all for your responses! I definately see the different points of view here! I have a private lesson with my instructor later today and I will ask him about all this.

Thanks again,
Chuck

 

[Rainman]

Hi Rainman..which leg are you stepping with to start the technique?

My bad, should have been 11:00- with the left foot. There are only two real choices here, learn to survive the initial attack or attack the attack. To see how good your tek is have some one tackle you from different distances... but not further than ten feet.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

My bad, should have been 11:00- with the left foot. There are only two real choices here, learn to survive the initial attack or attack the attack. To see how good your tek is have some one tackle you from different distances... but not further than ten feet.

Thanks, and great suggestion on the distancing! We were working it at a fairly close range. It will be interesting to test that.

MJ :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree about the different distances, but I would suggest limiting them to no more than perhaps four feet. After all, why stand in front of some guy who's obviously running towards you from ten feet away, in order to tackle you?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I agree about the different distances, but I would suggest limiting them to no more than perhaps four feet. After all, why stand in front of some guy who's obviously running towards you from ten feet away, in order to tackle you?

Robert,
That was the original thought. It couldn't hurt to try the different ranges though, just like I like to work it with people of different sizes...or maybe (hee hee) it will hurt more :uhyeah: !

MJ :asian:

 

[Rainman]

I agree about the different distances, but I would suggest limiting them to no more than perhaps four feet. After all, why stand in front of some guy who's obviously running towards you from ten feet away, in order to tackle you?

two steps in one second closes ten feet... anything else from the Mcdojo by McRobertson? :whip:

 

[Ceicei]

Ceicei we don't do a body parry, but it'd be great to hear your explanation if you have time to share!

Oh, it is not officially called a "body parry" and it is not a new move in Kenpo. It's just my own term of being able to have a certain move etched in my mind to help me remember better (hence the reason I put that in quotes). If you are aware of how Intellectual Departure starts, it is basically just physically sidestepping off the line of attack while using an arm/hand to check. Others have already mentioned this with Intercepting the Ram in checking the head while sidestepping, so I do not see any need to explain further.

- Ceicei

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Oh, it is not officially called a "body parry" and it is not a new move in Kenpo. It's just my own term of being able to have a certain move etched in my mind to help me remember better (hence the reason I put that in quotes). If you are aware of how Intellectual Departure starts, it is basically just physically sidestepping off the line of attack while using an arm/hand to check. Others have already mentioned this with Intercepting the Ram in checking the head while sidestepping, so I do not see any need to explain further.

- Ceicei

OK got it!