MMA and/or BJJ is in a different category. That is the booming martial arts at the moment. Kind of reminds me of where taekwondo used to be in the 70s. By the way, bullying programs in taekwondo are also doing well. I don't know how much approval those programs would receive from a diehard self defense is everything type though. In fact, I think I remember reading a thread or two about that, how ATA's bullying program was weak, for example. But taekwondo and bjj are in the lead at the moment for martial arts,while everything else suffers. The two styles don't really encroach on each other's territories, because I think people that are attracted to one aren't necessarily attracted to the other. Probably the most hurt from the BJJ craze, a craze that has been going on for 20 years, I would think would be self defense oriented schools.
Thriving schools
- Thread starter puunui
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MMA and/or BJJ is in a different category. That is the booming martial arts at the moment. Kind of reminds me of where taekwondo used to be in the 70s. By the way, bullying programs in taekwondo are also doing well. I don't know how much approval those programs would receive from a diehard self defense is everything type though. In fact, I think I remember reading a thread or two about that, how ATA's bullying program was weak, for example. But taekwondo and bjj are in the lead at the moment for martial arts,while everything else suffers. The two styles don't really encroach on each other's territories, because I think people that are attracted to one aren't necessarily attracted to the other. Probably the most hurt from the BJJ craze, a craze that has been going on for 20 years, I would think would be self defense oriented schools.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
The traditional karate schools I know of are affected. These are the ones with strict requirements and a high density of information to absorb that in the past attracted the athletic younger guys. I have no numbers to back it up, but I do get the sense that these type of guys are more attracted now by BJJ and other related type clubs where the macho appeal is evident from the onset and they can congregate with like-minded people easily. (BJJ people, don't see this as a put down - I have trained some BJJ out of curiosity and I think it is a great MA.)
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I didn't say any school would be hurt. You said essentially that a program was doomed to fail. Something like, "yeah. We will see how many students you get.". I pointed out that Gracie schools are doing well with Anti-bully program. What my post you quoted has to do with this thread is beyond me.
And, just FWIW, MMA and BJJ aren't the same. You know this as well as I do, based on our previous conversations.
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And, just FWIW, MMA and BJJ aren't the same. You know this as well as I do, based on our previous conversations.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think the first thing people need to get past if running their own school is that class sizes, how much money you make etc do not equate to a successful school necessarilly. Some of the best , most reputable schools I know have a small number of students and run out of someone's garage. If I were to run two schools, one soley to make as much money as possible and the other to offer the best possible martial arts instruction, I would run them very differently. Thats certainly not to say a good school cant be a big profitable school (there are many of them around), but I certainly dont judge the quality of a school by how many students they have or how expensive a car the owner drives. Steve made a good point in the other thread, just because something didnt work for you doesnt mean it doesnt work. The school I train at does all the things that you aparantly cant do if you want to be a large successful school and yet we just had a record year for new sign ups and business is booming despite an economic crisis.
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dancingalone
Grandmaster
But to get at the main idea of the original post, I don't know that the style is the primary reason what a school is successful. For years, one of the biggest ma schools in my area was actually a kung fu school, but they used a lot of the ideas that business-oriented schools get railed on to day for: catering to children and busy parents, after school pickups, fun environment, contracts, etc. You could take the same concept to just about any art and do very well financially if you're willing to adapt what you teach to fit the model. Ninja training, anyone?
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Measuring success is always a difficult one. I know of a guy who runs an extremely successful business in the building industry. He is under thirty, very wealthy and has all the fancy houses and cars to prove it. BUT, he is the first to admit he is very dodgey, cuts corners everywhere and basically rips people off. Is he successful? If you measure his commetcial success the answer is yes.
That's your interpretation, but that isn't what I said.
The point I was making was that people want different things today than before. It is a different generation of students, who really are not all that interested in self defense first and foremost.That is not why they sign up for taekwondo lessons in any event, which is the topic area of discussion.
You are absolutely entitled to your perspective, and I for one thank you for expressing it. With respect, may I ask you about the school you own/operate? I'm assuming it is KKW TKD? Do you also teach HKD (I know that you have legitimate rank in HKD as well)? Is it completely separate from the TKD classes? Are there children in both or is your HKD geared more towards adults? You mentioned KKW TKD having bully-prevention classes, what type of bully-prevention program do you have for the kids? Do you offer any type of abduction prevention for them?
Don't take any of this as trying to lead or bait you. Don't take it as trying to corner you. I know that you have high rank in both arts and have offered a great deal of information on successful schools. So now I'm genuinely intrigued as to your own school and the program(s) that you run. If you have a website for your school, could you link it or shoot it to me in a PM? Thank you.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
I would agree with this. Sharkey's Karate is known for producing national and world champions. People come in from all over the US, Canada and even Europe to train with them. However, if you were to walk into the school it would most likely not fit your image of what a school of such caliber would look like. It is not tiny but it certainly isn't a huge school either. It is a simple strip mall looking school.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
I think that is where some of the instructors make a mistake. They try to adapt their art to the new financial system instead of the other way around. Many of the business models offered by MAIA and others of the like are great ideas. You just need to learn how to work them into your currently structure. You can still have a non-watered down art and still make money doing (wow imagine that!). Also, not all models will work for all instructors, yet so many get excited, or perhaps intimidated that if they don't implement this next idea the school down the street will and take all their students. You simply need to be clever enough to implement these business models correctly and carefully.
I think 'strip-mall' schools get a bad rap. The size of a school, or the location is no indicator of the quality of the school. Indeed, a person can teach at the YMCA, their garage or back yard, the park, the beach, a run-down neighborhood or a church and have an excellent school.
Number of students is not an indicator or school quality either. Indeed, one could have a single student and be an excellent school.
The quality of the student(s) is the prime indicator of quality in an instructor.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
After reading through the responses in this thread, it seems to me that everyone here is defining "success" differently. The point I was trying to make earlier is that 'success' is very subjective, and the only definition that really matters is that of the school owner. He or she will define 'success' and then measure the school's performance based on that subjective definition.
What do you want out of your school? More students? Family friendly curriculum? Full kids classes? Lots of money? A giant 4000 sqft, state of the art facility? Fame and international recognition? The adulation of the masses?
No two people will define the term the same way.
That said, back to the original post, a school can teach an effective, anti-bully self defense class oriented to children AND have plenty of children enrolled. As I said in another thread, and as miguksaram also said in this thread, different instructors can do different things. If you, punuui, haven't met with success in a particular program, but believe you're very successful with others, great. That's awesome. But your failures aren't universal. There are different instructors who have different skills, and different personalities.
There are also different markets.
What do you want out of your school? More students? Family friendly curriculum? Full kids classes? Lots of money? A giant 4000 sqft, state of the art facility? Fame and international recognition? The adulation of the masses?
No two people will define the term the same way.
That said, back to the original post, a school can teach an effective, anti-bully self defense class oriented to children AND have plenty of children enrolled. As I said in another thread, and as miguksaram also said in this thread, different instructors can do different things. If you, punuui, haven't met with success in a particular program, but believe you're very successful with others, great. That's awesome. But your failures aren't universal. There are different instructors who have different skills, and different personalities.
There are also different markets.
I find that financial success of the school is tied to how business savvy the school owner far more than what the art or the quality of the instruction is. Notice what Puunui said about the flood of Korean instructors coming over and opening schools; they're all college grads who have been specifically trained and groomed to open and operate large commercial schools. Wouldn't matter if they were doing hapkido, yudo, tangsudo, or taebo; they have been set up to succeed before they ever broke ground. That doesn't make their art better. It simply means that they, collectively, are better prepared to run financially successful commercial schools than school owners in other arts collectively are.
Ferrari has record years too. They make great cars. And they will never, building the type of cars that they do, ever be as large as Honda, GM, Ford, Nissan or Toyota, or even Subaru. Are they successful? Yes. Are they a major player in the automotive business? Not in the grand scheme of it. Outside of F-1 prestige (something Honda, Renault, and Nissan among others also have) and success with a tiny market segment, nobody considers owning them. Same goes for Lamborghini, Pagani, and other small volume exotic manufacturers. Manufacturers who make cars that cost as much as a house tend not to have a very big market share.
Ferrari is a major player in a niche market and in F-1, but not in the general industry. They enjoy that success precisely because their business model mitigates against being as large as a GM, a Honda, or a Toyota.
It really comes down to knowing your market and remaining relevant to that market. In terms of the big picture, the business model of your school will not have the same broad appeal as that of KKW/WTF taekwondo. But that isn't an indictment against what your school does; it simply means that you cater to a smaller, more specific demographic and do so very well.
Great post!
No argument about that. In fact, I have been in learning situations where I was that one student. But that is not the issue. The issue is what do people want today from their martial arts training, and self defense no longer the prime consideration or objective, if it ever was for the majority of students. Whether or not a school is a high quality excellent school really is irrelevant towards what people want today.
There was a school here that proclaimed "the training doesn't stop until there is blood on the floor". the term "self defense" was part of the school's name. And it was a high quality excellent school, at least back then. But is that what students or their parents want today? I think not.
Surely you're not claiming to speak for everyone in every venue sir. In some venues, sport is just the ticket. In some, exercise and social interaction is just the ticket. And yes, in other venues the students want only SD. That is best left to the individual student and we should not claim to speak for them.
You've completely lost me here. Could you please clarify?
But one school cannot speak for an entire industry or art.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
First, I agree with you that many people aren't really interested in self defense. I don't have strong evidence of this, but I'd guess that this is true for most people. Within BJJ, I'd say very few people are really interested in learning "self defense." Some common motivations I've encountered are, at the most hardcore, to learn skills necessary in order to compete professionally in MMA. Beyond that are to be competitive within BJJ, to get in shape, to supplement/crosstrain from other styles of MA, and to just have fun.
Parents enroll their children for a lot of reasons, too. Now, with parents, self defense for the kids seems much more common, but many of the other reasons remain common.
But, it's important to note, once again, that different people are looking for different things, and it's interesting that you don't think of adults as students. When you talk about what "students" want, you're talking about child-age students. Right? Students and their parents. Further, the impression I get based upon several things you've said (but I may be mistaken) is that you consider children to be integral to a successful school. This isn't true for everyone, although it's certainly not a bad way to look at things.
Thanks for asking, rather than just assuming. For taekwondo schools, the student demographics have changed remarkably. Back in the day, the schools I have been with were filled mainly with males starting near teen to early twenties, very few females, and some older and some younger students. But the majority was teenage males. Today, that group has all but disappeared from the taekwondo dojang. You get a student who wanders in in this age group, but not so much. The adults who do come to join are generally parents who signed up their children, and then later decided to join themselves. So today, the taekwondo dojang is mostly filled with children and their parents and they generally are not there to learn primarily self defense. Yes, people are looking for different things, but the topic is about what people want out of their training, and to me, self defense is a low priority. Is there really any debate about that point? Is there anyone out there who believes the majority of potential students are adults who enter a taekwondo school because they want hard core self defense skills over everything else?
As for children being essential, I didn't used to think that, but I am beginning to. It is especially essential if you wish to make a living at teaching or in the alternative rent commercial space. I am sure there are all adult commercial dojang out there, but they are generally the exception rather than the rule.
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