Thoughts on TMA blocks. A discussion.

[seasoned]

Interestingly, in Taekwon-Do I'd say that learning how to dodge is as important, if not more important, than blocking. In Gen. Choi's condensed Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do the number of pages covering dodging is greater than the number of pages covering all 24 patterns (forms)! There are many different ways of dodging and Gen. Choi places a great emphasis on learning how to do so correctly so you avoid injury to your own body while being able to place yourself in a superior tactical position.

Pax,

Chris

I hope this is what you were talking about above.

Great point, Chris. Everyone of my kata involves body shifting. Not as noticeable when first learning the kata, but once you have trained for a while and it is reveled to you, it makes a lot of sense. In CMA it is said that when the hands move the feet move. Deflective "blocking" works best when your feet move as you "block", as in off the line of attack.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In the case of my forearms conditioning, are you refereing to strength or or bone strength and pain tolerance? Im not so worried about pain tolerance but my bone breaking is a worry.

A little bit of both, really. Dallyon, or "forging" in Taekwon-Do is to toughen and strengthen our attacking and blocking tools. The stereotypical aspect of this is the use of the dallyon joo (forging post, or makiwara in Japanese) but also includes things such as knocking exercises, which is what I do in the mornings. Basically, one knocks their forearms together. This results in increasing one's pain tolerance by toughening the forearms. Ultimately, forging will result in greater bone density.

Your statement that you're "not so worried about pain tolerance but [your] bonebreaking" should be looked at in light of your next statement:

Example, Last night I was playing with my 4 year old daughter. I wanted to try lower block, and she loves playing the "punch,front kick" game with me.(fun game, usually leads to them tackling me and i tickle the poo out of them) Well i had her stand in striking range and told her ok, front kick me as hard as you can. Now to put my self in the proper height i got on my knees so she could reach my vital areas.
First time around she feinted a punch and kicked me in the stomach. So as we proceed, i start using the lower block as i was shown. Every time i threw it and it connected, it felt like i was "smashing" (impacting hard) on her leg, it hurt the bone it impacted on in my arm, tho it did deflect the kicks and sometimes threw her off balance. If it hurt my arm while doing it on a 4 year olds kicks, it will break it on a full power adults kick wont it? At this point i think i may be doing it wrong.

I would say that if you're bone hurts considerably from blocking a kick from a 4 year old you might want to do some forearm conditioning. Start slow with light knocking and gradually build up reps and force over time. Do not rush things. Your forearms will bruise and there will be some tenderness at first. Make sure after you're done doing the knocking exercises you rub your forearms. Eventually, they will stop bruising and simply redden for a while and then return to normal. Make sure you remember to tighten the muscles of your forearms as you strike. This will enable the muscles to form a barrier around the bone so it shouldn't hurt (as much) when executing a strong block. I can't emphasize the importance of being able to move your body from a nice, relaxed, flexible state (during the preparation/wind up of the block) to being as hard as iron (at the moment of impact) and then back to relaxed again, and not just in blocking but in striking and kicking, too. The flexibility and relaxation of the body allows you to develop a high degree of speed, and the rigidity at the moment of impact will increase the damage done to the opponent.

If pain from blocking continues to be a problem you may want to consider seeing a doctor just to be on the safe side and rule out any sort of problem like a calcium deficiency.

You mentioned that you were heavy set and so dodging is tough for you. Heavier people do tend to be able to take a hit, but when facing a proficient opponent I don't recommend it. My instructor is shorter even than me (I'm 5'6") but I don't know many people who can generate more power than him. Work on dodging and think of blocking as an added bonus attack.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Great point, Chris. Everyone of my kata involves body shifting. Not as noticeable when first learning the kata, but once you have trained for a while and it is reveled to you, it makes a lot of sense. In CMA it is said that when the hands move the feet move. Deflective "blocking" works best when your feet move as you "block", as in off the line of attack.

I totally agree. There will be times when you'll have to "stand your ground" as you block, but even so you can dodge when doing so (jumping a low attack or doing what we call "body dropping"), but by all means move when you block if you can. It helps not only unbalance your opponent but also create an angle of attack for your counter. There is body shifting in Taekwon-Do patterns, too, but I think a lot of people don't pay much attention to it. Gen. Choi emphasized engaging at the correct distance and angle and that is carried over to his patterns (though, obviously, not in the same way as in sparring). Stepping, shifting, sliding, jumping, body dropping, foot raising are all methods of dodging and they are all found in patterns. And in some unexpected ways, too. I still remember the first time I thought "Now, why am I moving backwards here? The attack is the other way!"

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kframe]

Chrispilltkd, Can you link to a video or tutorial on how to do that forearm conditioning you mentiond? Id love to add that to my daily conditioning.

About dodging, im curious if tkd/karate doding is similar to the dodging i do in boxing. Do you guys slip and duck? I would imagine that weaving and bobbing isnt prevalent, none of the youtube vids i have seen of TMA fighters shows them doing it.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chrispilltkd, Can you link to a video or tutorial on how to do that forearm conditioning you mentiond? Id love to add that to my daily conditioning.

http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/files/vol02.pdf

This is a pdf of the second volume of Gen. Choi's Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do (which is 15 volumes long). Scroll all the way down to p. 287 of the pdf (p. 291 in the book - don't ask my why they are different) and you'll see the knocking exercises I mentioned for forearms, as well as one for knife-hands. There are also versions of both you can do with a partner. There are many, many other examples of dallyon in this volume, too.

About dodging, im curious if tkd/karate doding is similar to the dodging i do in boxing. Do you guys slip and duck? I would imagine that weaving and bobbing isnt prevalent, none of the youtube vids i have seen of TMA fighters shows them doing it.

Well, it depends. You will see some of that in some tournaments but, basically, there is an emphasis placed on retaining an upright posture in Taekwon-Do. In the section on dodging in the encyclopedia Gen. Choi points out that a proper posture must be maintained, especially when covering a longer distance. Also, when body dropping there is a general emphasis on retaining this uprightness, but occasionally you will actually lower your body so your hands are supporting it on the ground and then launching a counter attack from there (an example of which can be found in one of our patterns, in fact).

The bobbing and weaving you see in sports such as kick boxing is, really, adopted from boxing, as far as I can tell. There has been a bit of influence on Taekwon-Do from boxing as it's a relatively modern art (founded in 1955), but not too much. It's more common to see in higher level tournaments than in traditional training. It does share the idea that one should have a good posture while remaining flexible, but I think that is a carry over more from Taekkyon than an influence from boxing. (I've seen it referred to as a "relaxed elasticity.) I suppose you could argue that the crouched stance (Oguryo sogi) is something like a boxer's stance when they are in close, but it really looks more like karate's sanchin dachi, IMO.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kframe]

Chris thanks for the link. Ill start reading up on that. Ill ask my coach if we can incorperate some of that into our training. If not, then ill find another way to train them. I wonder, in my style of training if purchasing that series would be to a benifit to me. Certainly there are things i can gain from studying it other then bone conditioning.

With regards to the duck, you are correct in that posture must be maintained. It sounds like you just duck your head, but in actuallity its your legs that do the work. When I duck, i keep my body stance normal(tho ill likely have my hands up near my head in a typical boxer "sheild") and drop my legs at the knees down just a bit. Only enough to clear the attack. I find it usefull upclose and it sets up a nice attack for me. When im on my game and doing well, ill drop to avoid the attack, while low and motioning to the left to clear the attack ill throw a right into there floating ribs, then i come up for either a hook or a straight left. I was tuaght that when you duck you NEVER duck your head, thats a sure fire way to get it nailed, and it also unbalances you.

 

[mook jong man]

Dodging or getting off the line of the attack is a viable option if you have time and distance at your disposal.
If not , a 45 degree pivot of the stance combined with your deflection will enable you to turn aside a powerful charging punch or front kick with minimal impact on your arms.
Pivoting your whole body 45 degrees can be executed faster than trying to step off to the side and also leaves you in perfect position to attack the blind side.

 

[WC_lun]

Depending upon the type of attack, another great tactics is to direct energy or force onto the attacker center line. Again, depending upon the attack, it will deflect thier offense while at the same cutting the time frame they have to react to your attacks. If your attacks are backed by good solid structure, you will go through them like a hot knife through butter because they have no defense in place, are off balance, and trying to recover.

 

[jks9199]

Long time to react: Step, then block or counter.
Shorter time to react: Shift, then block or counter.
No time to react: Cover up, then counter.

If only it was really so easy to do as to say...

 

[DaleDugas]

In South Mantis they say:

"you use hands I use hands."

"You use legs I use legs"

 

[punisher73]

Interesting read about blocking from a TMA perspective (Goju-Ryu more specifically)

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html

 

[Kframe]

Punisher, im currently reading his blog, and find it fascinating. He has much to offer on his blog and i inted to read it all.

Honestly at this point, i can only learn more at the gym practicing it. Only so much can be learned here, and i appreciate all whom have helped me.

Ill keep you updated on how my training is progressing. I look forward to future discussions.

 

[Buka]

Long time to react: Step, then block or counter.
Shorter time to react: Shift, then block or counter.
No time to react: Cover up, then counter.

If only it was really so easy to do as to say...

The man said it all. "Counter".

The word "block" without "counter" to go with it ain't no fun at all. It's like shoveling against the tide. "Block and counter" should be like "salt and pepper".

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Xingyiquan...Block IS counter

 

[geezer]

In Xingyiquan...Block IS counter

You literally took the words out of my mouth! I was actually thinking "Block IS counter" as I scrolled down and your post popped into view.

 

[clfsean]

You literally took the words out of my mouth! I was actually thinking "Block IS counter" as I scrolled down and your post popped into view.

Yep... why block? Just hit!!

 

[mook jong man]

Deflect and strike with one limb , in one motion.
Lin Sil Die Dar.
The epitome of simultaneous counter-attack.

 

[K-man]

In Goju all 'blocks' involve using both hands. The first hand usually deflects and the second hand has multiple uses. As has been said previously, 'uke' means to receive. Chudan Uke is to 'receive' a mid section attack. It is not to 'block' a mid section attack. That would be the last option IMHO.

I teach that blocks are used when you are caught unprepared and those are instinctive, like a boxer's cover. All the other 'ukes', I teach as restraints or strikes, not blocks. :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yep... why block? Just hit!!

Technically speaking since in Xingyiquan defense is attack and attack is attack there is no block or counter... just attack

 

[Goldendawn8]

TMA blocks are ineffective if you consider them for defensive purposes alone. It's crucial to train in both defensive and offensive techniques to create balance in your

movements. In time they become interchangeable and basically one in the same.