The WC Tower of Babel

[Yoshiyahu]

My Approach to Wing Chun is learn the skeleton first and practice it over and over again until it becomes first nature...Then add the meat...in other words get the scheme or form of the System first...I didn't start off learning all the names...I still don't remember all the terms...I got a trust little sheet with all the terms on them...but I remember some...an as time goes on I remember more...there is alot of terminology...so I may never fully remember...but its good to know because it gives a better understanding...

But I could do a High Low Gan sau before I knew what it was. An my other techniques are the same. I dont get into to head knowledge so much...just the practice of the system is what you need...its better to know how to fight with the system than to be bogged down with upperlevel knowledge that can't protect you when someone is swinging a left hook. If I practice my Tan,Wu and Bil Sau enough I will be able to block that hook and turn off the force...So it wont hit me! Even if the person doesn't know what tan means they still have the ability to use thier art. When I was 16 I had no idea that Tan meant palm up or Bil meant thrusting or Wu meant guarding or bong meant Wing...But i knew how to use them...i knew how to apply them...this is whats most important to acheive first....let the other stuff come later...

I bought a book by Shaun Rawcliffe the other day. It blew me away how relevant it was to what I did. However, the names were slightly different or had slightly different theory about what the move was for. (It wasn't the authors fault - he clearly stated that the book wasn't intended to be a 'my way is the right way' kind of book)

It is always interesting to see how people describe certain movements

For example : A jum sao to one school could easily be a muen sao to another school

It doesn't make the move any less valid, and one probably isn't right over the other

Standardizing wing chun would mean that certain schools would no longer be 'unique' and would therefore lose money
And then you would get people arguing about who would write down the 'correct way'. That's partially why there are so many politics in wing chun

In Kamon we just take a very casual approach. We train the basic movements (bong sao, tan sao etc), but do not get wrapped up in knowing every single detail of the description of the movement

I'd rather do a move well than know what it is called. As an instructor I work hard learning the varying descriptions of moves and why in Kamon we call it what it is. But I know many people who don't bother with that. They are just there to learn how to defend themselves and they aren't bothered withwhat a move is called

 

[Si-Je]

Exactly, you learn the movements first. But a name to them makes them a little more familiar and friendly. Even if it's in a different language.
(Don't mind me, I like learning words from different languages lol!) but, that knowledge shouldn't enslave you in your thinking and knowing about technique.
names are irrelevant. They're just supposed to give you an idea of what your "talking " about when sharing ideas.

My Approach to Wing Chun is learn the skeleton first and practice it over and over again until it becomes first nature...Then add the meat...in other words get the scheme or form of the System first...I didn't start off learning all the names...I still don't remember all the terms...I got a trust little sheet with all the terms on them...but I remember some...an as time goes on I remember more...there is alot of terminology...so I may never fully remember...but its good to know because it gives a better understanding...

But I could do a High Low Gan sau before I knew what it was. An my other techniques are the same. I dont get into to head knowledge so much...just the practice of the system is what you need...its better to know how to fight with the system than to be bogged down with upperlevel knowledge that can't protect you when someone is swinging a left hook. If I practice my Tan,Wu and Bil Sau enough I will be able to block that hook and turn off the force...So it wont hit me! Even if the person doesn't know what tan means they still have the ability to use thier art. When I was 16 I had no idea that Tan meant palm up or Bil meant thrusting or Wu meant guarding or bong meant Wing...But i knew how to use them...i knew how to apply them...this is whats most important to acheive first....let the other stuff come later...

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So very true...

But I realize everyone doesn't care to learn other languages...So to stop the madness ones focus should be on technique over terminology...An over time learn some of the terms...

Exactly, you learn the movements first. But a name to them makes them a little more familiar and friendly. Even if it's in a different language.
(Don't mind me, I like learning words from different languages lol!) but, that knowledge shouldn't enslave you in your thinking and knowing about technique.
names are irrelevant. They're just supposed to give you an idea of what your "talking " about when sharing ideas.

 

[geezer]

I'd rather do a move well than know what it is called.

That's what it really boils down to. Besides, people who really are interested in comparing technique can just demonstrate what they are talking about. After all, even the same technique with the same name is applied differently by practitioners from different branches. Remember our discussions about bong sau? I think I understood what you were getting at when describing how you use a "collapsing bong sau", but until we meet and you show me physically, I'm really just guessing. Our art is about energy, and the "feel" of a technique more than outward appearance and curious names.

BTW nice to read your posts again Kamon. The forum has become a bit, er... narrower (?) lately.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

what does narrower mean????

That's what it really boils down to. Besides, people who really are interested in comparing technique can just demonstrate what they are talking about. After all, even the same technique with the same name is applied differently by practitioners from different branches. Remember our discussions about bong sau? I think I understood what you were getting at when describing how you use a "collapsing bong sau", but until we meet and you show me physically, I'm really just guessing. Our art is about energy, and the "feel" of a technique more than outward appearance and curious names.

BTW nice to read your posts again Kamon. The forum has become a bit, er... narrower (?) lately.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think he's tryinmg to say I'm fat... sob sob

 

[mook jong man]

I think he's tryinmg to say I'm fat... sob sob

Your not fat , your just big boned lol.

 

[dungeonworks]

Honestly, if we all used English translations it would still be different. Like Yoshi was saying too.

Ideally, if we could get all the big masters together to decide what is called what and send out a memo to all the WC/WT students and teachers so they can have a standard set of terminology. I think this would be great, if ego's could be put aside long enough to make compromises to better people's understanding of the art. The terminology is out of control.

I believe the A.O.K came together to set up what official forms and terminology was to be used with the American Karate systems. This made their tournament circuits more managable, and more popular, and simpler. (I could be wrong, but it seems like they are much more organized in their systems)

Personally, I like the chinese or cantonese names, because it's represenative of the type of art I learn. And supposedly is to teach me the basic names so if I learn from another Sifu who may not speak my language much or at all. At least we should a small foundation to start with. When I took Tang Soo Do we learned everything in Korean. Seemed silly, utill the Grand Master came to clinic to test the students going for black belt. Master didn't speak a lick of English, he's was old, leave him alone. So all needed to know enough Korean to get through a belt test.
If we could get the Cantonese speakers to sit down and just agree on what to call everything, I think it would workout great.

I totally agree and remember similar belt testings from my TKD class EONS ago! LOL I do notice that the Japanese from my Koei-Kan-Karate-Do days fits much more closely to the Japanese folks I have spoken with in a non-karate setting, and I literally inquired as to the accuracy of the terminology I was learning in Karate.

Ah well, as long as you understand what you are doing and why, things should work out well. Nothing short of a universal heiroglyphic means of written communication would be totally universal in the truest sense...but then you would have modifications to that, different drawing styles may change it too....ect. We can't win! LOL

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So whats the answer...i guess it would have to be a war to get people to let go of their differences or diversity...a Wing Chun War to unifiy all the schools...

I totally agree and remember similar belt testings from my TKD class EONS ago! LOL I do notice that the Japanese from my Koei-Kan-Karate-Do days fits much more closely to the Japanese folks I have spoken with in a non-karate setting, and I literally inquired as to the accuracy of the terminology I was learning in Karate.

Ah well, as long as you understand what you are doing and why, things should work out well. Nothing short of a universal heiroglyphic means of written communication would be totally universal in the truest sense...but then you would have modifications to that, different drawing styles may change it too....ect. We can't win! LOL

 

[Si-Je]

The wing chun schools are going to have to unify and make more solid the art of Wing Chun. Otherwise I see it fading away, merging with other styles into obscurity.
A Wing Chun "war" would destroy everyone. A Wing Chun "alliance" would strengthen everyone's WT/WC and give pride back to the students and faith, and belief in their art.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well sometimes war is all thats needed...lol...Too many people are teaching Watered down WC. Others refuse to give out the real WC. So the need for merging WC is growing because some people WC is crap.

The wing chun schools are going to have to unify and make more solid the art of Wing Chun. Otherwise I see it fading away, merging with other styles into obscurity.


A Wing Chun "war" would destroy everyone. A Wing Chun "alliance" would strengthen everyone's WT/WC and give pride back to the students and faith, and belief in their art.

 

[Si-Je]

All the more reason for everyone to "get it together" and make the art more uniform so everyone has a chance to learn real wing chun. Merge the terminologies, the grading systems, etc.. into a standarized set for the Wing Chun community. That way a student goes from one school to the other it's not a total "culture shock", and we have less of a chance of someone going on international t.v. claiming to be VT or whatever, failing horribly and embarrising the art forever. Especially when no one knows who their teacher is or was.
If that was a different art, elders wouldn't put up with that at all or let someone claim to be "kempo" or "judo" and then embarras the art when It's obvious their not.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

but what about the Sifus teaching crap to hide their secrets???

All the more reason for everyone to "get it together" and make the art more uniform so everyone has a chance to learn real wing chun. Merge the terminologies, the grading systems, etc.. into a standarized set for the Wing Chun community. That way a student goes from one school to the other it's not a total "culture shock", and we have less of a chance of someone going on international t.v. claiming to be VT or whatever, failing horribly and embarrising the art forever. Especially when no one knows who their teacher is or was.
If that was a different art, elders wouldn't put up with that at all or let someone claim to be "kempo" or "judo" and then embarras the art when It's obvious their not.

 

[yak sao]

Look up japanese baseball terms on google.

They took our sport and the terms of the sport and brought them into their culture.

They say "basaboru" for baseball and "fouru buru" for foul ball and on and on.

Why don't they use their language for the same terms? wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to them?

I was working with a student the other night who's only been training for a short time so the terminology is still very new to him

I would tell him to pak sao or jum sao etc and you could see his mind lock up. then I started saying slap my punch, sink your elbow, and he went to town.........

Just saying

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I train sometime with this police officer. I share the terminology with him little by little...Then we drill it...

We do drills like Pak Sau drills. So I would say something like Pak Sau. He would do it like fifty times...Or have him perform the technique while saying it outloud,


When I punch he would tan and then say Tan Sau. Do that about fifty times then go to Jum Sau.

Punch Jum then say outloud jumsau like fifty reps...


This works well.

plus if you use alot terms all the time they pick it up quickly. Plus I gave him some print outs of the terms and hands...

Look up japanese baseball terms on google.

They took our sport and the terms of the sport and brought them into their culture.

They say "basaboru" for baseball and "fouru buru" for foul ball and on and on.

Why don't they use their language for the same terms? wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to them?

I was working with a student the other night who's only been training for a short time so the terminology is still very new to him

I would tell him to pak sao or jum sao etc and you could see his mind lock up. then I started saying slap my punch, sink your elbow, and he went to town.........

Just saying

 

[naneek]

yeah print outs helped me a lot too, my sifu gave me some to look at early on in my training and although i dont remember everything they really help with my retention of the terminology

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea what ever you dont remember you always got your notes to go back too...

yeah print outs helped me a lot too, my sifu gave me some to look at early on in my training and although i dont remember everything they really help with my retention of the terminology

 

[yak sao]

I don'tr think it's a matter of memorizing terminology. WT is a high level form of kung fu. It is based on priciples. Principles that should engage your brain.
As I've heard si-fu EB say "we think in our training so we don't have to think during a fight, only react"

As for me, I'm American, I speak English, albeit with a bit of a southern accent. I think in English, I dream in English. Therefore I think to get the most out of training, that is, to get deeper into the concepts, it has to be
taught in English.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to abolish the cantonese terminology. I think instead we should put it in it's proper perspective.
For example:
"This is a sinking elbow, the chinese term for this is jum sao"
We have it back asswards. We are placing these terms on a pedestal. It's only a language. It's only kung fu. These were not handed down by the gods. Men developed them.

I'm not the ugly American. I'm fascinated by other cultures, I would love to learn a foreign language. I took a couple of years of Spanish in high school but I couldn't conjugate a verb if you put a gun to my head.
I also would love to have a lamborgini. But I want the owner's manual in English, thank you very much.

Rant over

 

[geezer]

All the more reason for everyone to "get it together" and make the art more uniform so everyone has a chance to learn real wing chun. Merge the terminologies, the grading systems, etc.. into a standarized set for the Wing Chun community. .

For better or for worse, that won't happen. It runs contrary to the independent, individualistic nature of all the Chinese sifus I've met. And Americans are even more so! Besides, conformity can really limit an art. (I'm a high school art teacher by the way). I just watched an interesting video by Sensei Patrick McCarthy that discusses how the Japanese emphasis on conformity adversely affected the practical effectiveness of Okinawan Karate--www.martialartsview.com --episode S4:E4.

Interestingly, some of the really old photos of Okinawan Te shown in the video come straight from Fukien White Crane and look a whole lot like WT/WC. There's a very old photo of a small, skinny, bald-headed old guy who resembles GGM Yip Man. He's executing a WC/WT style mid-level front kick and simultaneously striking to the face (thumb in the eye, vertical palm along the jaw) just like the "piercing-hands" movement at the beginning of Chum Kiu. It's a perfect simultaneous defense and double counter-attack.

Anyway, if the later Japanese emphasis on uniformity and simplified militaristic drills reduced this art to what it later became, then I'd rather put up with the problem of too much individuality in WC/WT. It's definitely the lesser of two evils.

De todos modos, "Vale mas el modo viejo."

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what you mean...but in reality why do we even speak english...because we were born here...or because someone else invading this land...if it hadn't been for the massacre of poor indians we may all not even be speaking english or spanish...

Some of us might be speaking gaelic...others japanese, others might be speaking wolof and others may even be speaking chinese...if the invaders never came to kill and rape the poor indians our ancestors may have migrated to china for a better life....Then the terminology wouldnt even be big deal now would it...


I have great respect for the chinese language...I don't use the phrase i speak english stop me from growing and learning more...I only speak english because i was born here...I dont really care for english much...its mongrel language to me...but i speak it because it what i mainly know...but when i read the scriptures...i try to get away from english and read hebrew...why because english is mongrel language and can be misleading in certain contexts.

But this is my opinion...you may all different...I don't hold english to high pedstal...I only speak it because of Chance.

I don'tr think it's a matter of memorizing terminology. WT is a high level form of kung fu. It is based on priciples. Principles that should engage your brain.
As I've heard si-fu EB say "we think in our training so we don't have to think during a fight, only react"

As for me, I'm American, I speak English, albeit with a bit of a southern accent. I think in English, I dream in English. Therefore I think to get the most out of training, that is, to get deeper into the concepts, it has to be
taught in English.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to abolish the cantonese terminology. I think instead we should put it in it's proper perspective.
For example:
"This is a sinking elbow, the chinese term for this is jum sao"
We have it back asswards. We are placing these terms on a pedestal. It's only a language. It's only kung fu. These were not handed down by the gods. Men developed them.

I'm not the ugly American. I'm fascinated by other cultures, I would love to learn a foreign language. I took a couple of years of Spanish in high school but I couldn't conjugate a verb if you put a gun to my head.
I also would love to have a lamborgini. But I want the owner's manual in English, thank you very much.

Rant over