The War is Over - We've Lost

Sapper6

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Tgace said:
The guy is a conspiracy theory Encyclopedia Britianica.

i just tried the link upnorthkyosa posted. it was a broken link, says page not found. i bet an alien UFO stole it and put it in the box that Hoffa and Elvis have been living in all this time.

in all seriousness, please check the link, i'm really interested to read it...
 
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michaeledward

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mrhnau said:
Imagine you smoke marijuana or something. someone tips off the authorities. you go into negotiations regarding the right to inspect your house. They give you a list of rooms they check on different days and the order in which they will be checked. Simple solution, you move the joints from room to room. no problem there (satellite images of trucks coming and going from inspection sites days before inspections occured).

authorities get upset, and say they will take over your house unless you give up the dope. They give you MONTHS of warning, saying "you better do this or else!". Simple solution, get it out of your house, give it to a friend before they come and do anything (tons of anthrax found in Syria by the border. anyone think they made it there?)

Could we have done it better? It would have been difficult. unannounced inspections, forced entry into the palaces would have been a start... I try to mention these things when I hear "there were no weapons". They also had long range missiles which were "illegal" by UN sanctions, but I'm hearing nothing of that. No, they are not nuclear or biological, but still against sanctions. I think things could have been handled a bit differently, but I prefer to discuss these presuppositions before drawing out the discussion of "why did we go in".

On the concept of "faulty intel", would you rather we get the best info we can and act on it? could this have in fact prevented 9/11? If all info says "they have this stuff", what should we have done? disbelieve it?
Or ...

It's 1998 .. President Clinton Authorizes an protectred strike against suspected targets .. in combination with the UNSCOM inspectors work from 1991 through 1998, all dangerous weapons and facilities were destroyed and not rebuilt.

Which is more likely? Hmmm.

And for the record, the United Nations inspectors, in 2002 and 2003 did have the ability to go where ever they wanted, unannounced.

Long range missles ... missles were acceptable to 150 kilometers. Iraq's missles that violated that statute had a range of 157 kilometers. That extra four miles certainly justifies $300,000,000,000.00. Oh, and don't forget, those missles were being destroyed by the inspectors.
 

Bob Hubbard

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Sapper6 said:
i just tried the link upnorthkyosa posted. it was a broken link, says page not found. i bet an alien UFO stole it and put it in the box that Hoffa and Elvis have been living in all this time.

in all seriousness, please check the link, i'm really interested to read it...
Sapper,
UpNorths link works for me. Goes to a Wiki on consp. theories.
 

Makalakumu

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Tgace said:
The guy is a conspiracy theory Encyclopedia Britianica.
Actually, I posted a link that you posted in another thread...there was some great stuff in there worth recycling. It would be interesting to find the actual interview in Defense News that was cited.
 
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michaeledward

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Who is Dr. Peter Feaver, and why is he writing the Plan for Victory in Iraq?

I love the irony in that document title.
 

Ping898

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michaeledward said:
Who is Dr. Peter Feaver, and why is he writing the Plan for Victory in Iraq?

I love the irony in that document title.


Got to love the Information Security of this age.....
 

bustr

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If we try to tell ourselves we are 'Nation Building', 'Spreading Democracy', or 'Bringing Peace to the Middle East' we are deceiving ourselves.

That's just how the republicans sold this war. Winning was never their objective. As long as the oil fields are secure and Halliburton and Carlyle are making money they've achieved their true objective.
 

RandomPhantom700

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Bob Hubbard said:
Sapper,
UpNorths link works for me. Goes to a Wiki on consp. theories.

Same here, some dictionary diatribe on conspiracy theories. My theory is that Sapper's lying about the broken link just to throw in another insult.

Just to be PC on the matter, :)
 

Phoenix44

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Firstly: A comparison between the American Revolution and the Iraq situation is inapplicable. The colonies declared independence from the British. No uninvolved country--not even France--invaded, deposed the British monarch and governors, and then attempted to set up a new government on its own terms, forcing a new Constitution. Did we get help from France? Was France pleased as punch to cause trouble for Britain? Sure, but the comparison simply isn't there.

Last month, for the first time, a coalition of Iraqi Shiite, Sunni, and Kurdish leaders, at a conference in Cairo under the auspices of the Arab Leaque, presented a closing memorandum demanding that foreign troops be withdrawn on a specified timetable, dependent on an immediate plan for restoring Iraqi security forces. Yet our government refuses to even consider any timetable for withdrawal or to discuss it's "plan" for Iraqi security forces (other than to prevaricate about how many forces have already been trained).

The problem in Iraq is that we broke it, and we just keep on breaking it. Who are we fighting and killing after all? Iraqis. Win, lose or draw, at this point, we ARE the problem.
 
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michaeledward

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Didn't really want to start a new thread on this ....

The War in Iraq was originally launched to prevent Saddam Hussein from using his massive stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction; or at least preventing him from giving them to al Qaeda.

When it turned out that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, we were bringing self-deterimination, through democracy to a region of the world where it is in short supply.

Yesterday, the Palestinian Territories held an election (Yea Democracy!). They elected, by an apparent large majority, the Hamas organization to leadership positions in their legislature. Hamas provides a great deal of humanitarian and cultural assistance to the Palestinians. They also sponsor aggressive terrorist attacks on Isreal.

Washington DC is trying to reconcile a democratically elected terrorist organization; hoping that now there is true leadership power for Hamas, they may moderate their hardline position.

Could the outcome of this election have been the result of an aggressive policy by the United States?

Is this the Democracy President Bush is hoping to bring to the Middle East?
 

jdinca

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michaeledward said:
Could the outcome of this election have been the result of an aggressive policy by the United States?

Is this the Democracy President Bush is hoping to bring to the Middle East?

I would say it has more to do with the rampant corruption of Fatah, thanks to their deceased leader, Yasser Arafat, who was the most corrupt of them all.

I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". BTW, the idea of bringing democracy did not originate with Bush, he's just been more agressive about it. Either way, the free world is scratching its head right now.
 
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michaeledward

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jdinca said:
I would say it has more to do with the rampant corruption of Fatah, thanks to their deceased leader, Yasser Arafat, who was the most corrupt of them all.

I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". BTW, the idea of bringing democracy did not originate with Bush, he's just been more agressive about it. Either way, the free world is scratching its head right now.

Except for the free world of the Palestinian Territories, you mean.

They got what the voted for, right?
 

Flatlander

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I don't know if the Hamas victory is as much a fault of US mideast policy as it is a commentary on the failure of Fatah. Either way, I don't see how a softer mideast policy would have necessarily changed the general Palestinian mindset (Israel is, after all, their primary concern). Given that, I'm not terribly surprised that Hamas has attained legitimate power there. These people want action.

With that in mind, I'm not so sure that the "war is over", in reference to the thread title. It may be still quite underway. The war, be it the war on terror, or the war on violence, or the war on mid-east conflict, or what ever this ongoing unrest can properly be named, will take much more that the overthrow of Hussein and the democratization of Iraq, and Afghanistan.
 

jdinca

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michaeledward said:
Except for the free world of the Palestinian Territories, you mean.

They got what the voted for, right?

Very true. I wonder if they truly know what it is they've voted for? Hamas provides so much humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, I think they overlook, or minimize what most of the world considers Hamas to be, a terrorist organization. One that is bent on the destruction of Israel, and supported by a country who feels that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth and who feels that the holocaust never happened. Scary stuff. Especially since they have the same feelings toward just about everyone who's not a muslim.

Whatever your viewpoint, there is a certain irony in the fact that the religious conservatives in this country are very concerned (as are we all) about the actions of religious conservatives. We are in the middle of a modern day version of the Crusades. Radical muslim fundamentalists are attempting to spread their view of Islam throughout the world, with no concern about killing infidels (us), and the Judeo/Christian world is fighting back.
 

tradrockrat

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jdinca said:
We are in the middle of a modern day version of the Crusades. Radical muslim fundamentalists are attempting to spread their view of Islam throughout the world, with no concern about killing infidels (us), and the Judeo/Christian world is fighting back.

The crusades never ended - at least for the muslim world. I'm not trying to cast aspersion upon all muslims, but the preceeding statement isn't mine, it's from my aide at work - an Armenian from Iran. She is very knowledgable about the culture and we have spent many hours in conversation about current world events. I've come to understand from her that the muslim culture of the middle east take a long term veiw of history. By that I mean that culturally, 1000 years ago is as relevent as yesterday. So in a very real sense the war we are currently fighting began in the 1100's.
 
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michaeledward

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jdinca said:
Radical muslim fundamentalists are attempting to spread their view of Islam throughout the world, with no concern about killing infidels (us), and the Judeo/Christian world is fighting back.

That description could very easily, and legitimately, invert the Subject and Object and still be correct.

"Radical Christian Fundamentalists are attempt to spread their view of Christianity througout the world, with no concern about killing infidels (them), and the Muslim world is fighting back."

You could also substitute, 'Radical Democratic Capitalists' for 'Radical Christian Fundamentalists'. Until one is able to recognize the truth in this inverse statement, progress will be inhibited.

Flatlander ... concerning my statement 'The War is Over' ... The United States certainly is has not stopped paying for the war. But in the last few weeks, we have seen the election of a government supported by someone whose name begins with 'Grand Ayatollah' in Iraq, and the election of a government that sponsors Terrorism in the Palestinian Territories.

We may very well have 'spread democracy', but, I can't imagine the architects of this war envisioned that result.
 

jdinca

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michaeledward said:
That description could very easily, and legitimately, invert the Subject and Object and still be correct.

I disagree. Christians don't think it's perfectly okay to kill non-Christians, just because they're not Christian. The radical muslims the world is now dealing with think that this is perfectly legitimate and, in the truly extreme ranks, feel it is their duty.

I also disagree that the architects of this war didn't envision this result. It's been discussed since the beginning that this was a possibility, it just wasn't what they hoped would happen.

As for the Palestinian Authority, I think the world is going to watch it implode as a result of this election. Yes, this was a democratic election but the rest of the world has a right to disagree with the outcome and not deal with the resulting government.
 
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