The War is Over - We've Lost

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michaeledward

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jdinca said:
I disagree. Christians don't think it's perfectly okay to kill non-Christians, just because they're not Christian. The radical muslims the world is now dealing with think that this is perfectly legitimate and, in the truly extreme ranks, feel it is their duty.

I also disagree that the architects of this war didn't envision this result. It's been discussed since the beginning that this was a possibility, it just wasn't what they hoped would happen.

As for the Palestinian Authority, I think the world is going to watch it implode as a result of this election. Yes, this was a democratic election but the rest of the world has a right to disagree with the outcome and not deal with the resulting government.

Even if Christians don't 'think' its okay to kill non-Christians, non-religious observers would note the actions, rather than the thoughts. If one is curious about the 'actions', I would direct you to www.iraqbodycount.net

I am not certain that I made a claim about what the 'architects' envisioned. Although we do know that they felt the war would be short, and the Iraqi's would greet us with 'chocolate' and 'flowers'.

We have a right to disagree with the outcome? He said incredulously ... except the cases of Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, eh?

So much for 'Supporting Democracy', only if its 'our democracy'.
 

ginshun

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I wasn't aware that our goal in Iraq was to kill Muslims and spread Christianity, or that that is what our actions thus far show.

Huh, you learn something new everyday.
 
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michaeledward

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ginshun said:
I wasn't aware that our goal in Iraq was to kill Muslims and spread Christianity, or that that is what our actions thus far show.

Huh, you learn something new everyday.

Again, regardless of our 'goal' or 'goals'.

The realpolitik on the ground is somewhere between 28,000 and 32,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. Last week, several Pakistani children were killed. Those killings have been by a government and country that is seen as 'Christian'.

www.iraqbodycount.net

And, if you want to remain informed, make a donation. I have.
 

jdinca

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Even if Christians don't 'think' its okay to kill non-Christians, non-religious observers would note the actions, rather than the thoughts.

So your point is that death is death, regardless of whether it is an adopted doctrine or unintentional. You're allowed to have your point of view. I choose to differentiate.

Flatlander ... concerning my statement 'The War is Over' ... The United States certainly is has not stopped paying for the war. But in the last few weeks, we have seen the election of a government supported by someone whose name begins with 'Grand Ayatollah' in Iraq, and the election of a government that sponsors Terrorism in the Palestinian Territories.

We may very well have 'spread democracy', but, I can't imagine the architects of this war envisioned that result.


Did I misunderstand this statement?

We have a right to disagree with the outcome? He said incredulously ... except the cases of Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, eh?

Let's see, the left has disagreed with the 2000, and 2004 elections since the day the results were released and have fought against the resulting adminstration since that time. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't think anybody has ever said you don't have the right to disagree.

So much for 'Supporting Democracy', only if its 'our democracy'.

I haven't seen any comments slamming democracy in these countries, only unhappiness over the election results. I wasn't aware that that was somehow not supporting democracy. If that's the case, then I guess the left doesn't support democracy in our own country, since it didn't get it's way in 2000, and 2004 and is unhappy with the results. This is like saying I don't support the right to free speech because I disagree with your opinion and choose to distance myself from you.
 
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michaeledward

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jdinca,

If you have not seen the bevy of articles expressing regret about the election and demanding action from Hamas, then nothing I say here will convince you that it is occuring. Goverments around the world expressed misgivings about the election.

Find any news article with the word HAMAS in the title, and review the 'Related Articles' at the bottom or side of the page. I have not seen a single article that 'celebrates democracy' in the Palestinian Territories.

Do you think the President is going to have a Palestinian with a purple finger in the review booth Tuesday night?
 
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michaeledward

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The irony in this article amazes me.

Like Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said, you don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have.

Well, to change the spin of the news cycle; if we can't field the army we are paying for, we will pay for the army we have.

The President has requested cuts in the size of the Army Reserve and the National Guard. Because recruitment numbers are off, and the military has been unable to fill positions it forcasted, the Administration is going to cut the size of the Army Reserve and National Guard to the actual size serving at the end of 2005. (Recommended cuts of 34,000 soldiers)
See ... our military is 'fully staffed'.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11080817/

That's like my kid's 10 page school report suddenly becoming a 6 page report the day before it's due, because she only has 6 pages complete.
 
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michaeledward

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And ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060129/pl_nm/iraq_usa_stoploss_dc

While the Administraiton is cutting the numbers of soldiers in the Reserves and Guard, because they can't find people to fill them.

They are preventing soldiers at the end of the contract term from leaving.

Hilferty said there are about 12,500 soldiers in the regular Army, as well as the part-time National Guard and Reserve, currently serving involuntarily under the policy, and that about 50,000 have had their service extended since the program began in 2002. An initial limited use of stop-loss was expanded in subsequent years to affect many more.

So, 12,500 soldiers serving after there enlistment has ended, via the stop loss program ..... and 37,000 cut so the Administration can claim 'fully staffed'.

It seems this Iraq war is also destroying our military. Representative Murtha may have been correct. eh?
 

Jonathan Randall

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Listen, I was as opposed to the Iraq war as anybody; however I understand the efect a declaration of defeat would have upon our soldiers and I, for one, am not willing to go there.
 

celtic_crippler

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I was hesitant to post on this thread and have a feeling I'll probably regret it, but..................

No offense, but that's quite a defeatest attitude you have there not to mention very negative. I'm not going to get into a debate over the legitimacy of the war, but rather your general attitude. I've always beleived and been taught that martial artists should keep a positive attitude and try to influence others to do the same. I hope you don't approach the other aspects of your life in such a negative manner.
 
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michaeledward

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What you call a defeatist attitude, I call seeing the world as it is. Martial arts teach us to be cognizant of situational awareness; what is actually going on around us rather than what our 'positive attitude' might suggest.

Also, Newsweek headlines show that the United States Military is engaged in high-level negotiations with the Iraqi Insurgents. That's quite a change from our former position, isn't it?
 

celtic_crippler

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Consider your sources of information. You can be a "realist" and still maintain a positive attitude. Most sources you've cited are known to put a "liberal" (I hate using that term because they're really not liberal by the true definition, but that's how people relate to them today...sigh) spin on the "news" they report. Keep in mind, good news doesn't sell in the U.S. which in itself says a lot about our general character...I'm ashamed to say.

If you want a more "realistic" picture of what is going on, use as many sources as possible. I watch both CNN and FOX for instance. My best friend was a registered Democrat and Kerry supporter (I've since converted him into a Libertarian, lol) and I still have many friends serving in the military. They all have their takes on the situation. The "reality" usually lies between all the rhetoric. You just have to be able to sort through it all.
 
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michaeledward

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I am wondering what 'liberal sources' can do to manipulate facts.

Fact ... the number of Army Reserves and National Guard are being cut from current level on the books, to the actual staffed level at the end of 2005. It really doesn't matter who reports that fact.

Fact ... the United States Armed Services 'Stop Loss' program currently has 12,500 soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan beyond their enlistment contract expiration date. Again, who reports this fact is irrelevant.

Fact ... U.S. Backed Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi faired very poorly in the recent Iraqi elections. The minority Kurdish candidate received one million more votes that the Shi'ite Allawi. The Shi'ite Majority in Iraq elected a slate of candidate that has the backing of Grand Ayatollah Sistani. It is difficult to even be aware of those results in American Media, liberal or otherwise. But, if you can find the news, the results don't change.

That you are implying I am repeating 'rhetoric' is neglect of the facts. While I am very liberal ... Big D Democrat, Big Government kind of guy ... the facts are the facts.

Which fact would you like further to discuss?
 
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michaeledward

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michaeledward said:
If you have not seen the bevy of articles expressing regret about the election and demanding action from Hamas, then nothing I say here will convince you that it is occuring. Goverments around the world expressed misgivings about the election.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060130/ap_on_re_eu/rice

LONDON - The United States wants other nations to cut off aid to a Hamas-led Palestinian government, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said ahead of an international strategy session on Mideast peace prospects.

Rice ruled out any U.S. financial assistance to a Hamas government.

Humanitarian help to the Palestinians, many of whom are poor and unemployed, is likely on a "case-by-case basis," Rice said Sunday. She indicated that the administration would follow through on aid promised to the current, U.S.-backed Palestinian government led by President Mahmoud Abbas.

So much for 'Democracy', eh?
 

sgtmac_46

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michaeledward said:
What you call a defeatist attitude, I call seeing the world as it is. Martial arts teach us to be cognizant of situational awareness; what is actually going on around us rather than what our 'positive attitude' might suggest.

Also, Newsweek headlines show that the United States Military is engaged in high-level negotiations with the Iraqi Insurgents. That's quite a change from our former position, isn't it?
I don't think you're being defeatist at all. I think you're trying to declare victory. I think in your own way, this is a 'positive attitude'. I think you believe all this is 'good news'.

I would hope I was wrong, but I certainly doubt it. You're far too smug and eager about the prospect of declaring 'defeat'.
 

sgtmac_46

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michaeledward said:
I am wondering what 'liberal sources' can do to manipulate facts.

Fact ... the number of Army Reserves and National Guard are being cut from current level on the books, to the actual staffed level at the end of 2005. It really doesn't matter who reports that fact.

Fact ... the United States Armed Services 'Stop Loss' program currently has 12,500 soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan beyond their enlistment contract expiration date. Again, who reports this fact is irrelevant.

Fact ... U.S. Backed Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi faired very poorly in the recent Iraqi elections. The minority Kurdish candidate received one million more votes that the Shi'ite Allawi. The Shi'ite Majority in Iraq elected a slate of candidate that has the backing of Grand Ayatollah Sistani. It is difficult to even be aware of those results in American Media, liberal or otherwise. But, if you can find the news, the results don't change.

That you are implying I am repeating 'rhetoric' is neglect of the facts. While I am very liberal ... Big D Democrat, Big Government kind of guy ... the facts are the facts.

Which fact would you like further to discuss?
'Facts' do not speak for themselves. When 'facts' are manipulated, distorted, and hand-selected, solely for the express purposes for engendering an emotional response, it's propaganda.

In the news business, there are a lot of 'facts' to choose from. How and why you choose a given set of 'facts' to report often times has a lot to do with bias.
 

sgtmac_46

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michaeledward said:
Democracy?! This has nothing to do with Democracy. The Palestinians can elect who they want....It does NOT mean we have to pay for it!
Claiming that we are being 'undemocratic' because we won't pay for Hamas to run, is absurd. We are under no obligation to fund a government we deem dangerous, that would be asinine. They have the right to vote in Hamas, but we, again, are under ZERO obligation to fund Hamas.

We can take our money and go home, and be NO LESS democratic, thank you very much.
 
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michaeledward

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Unfortunately, the time has come to resurrect this thread ...

Today, we read in Newsweek ..

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12920385/site/newsweek

Containment, says one Army officer involved in training in Iraq, is at least "doable." He adds: "The only real question is: How do we keep Iraq from becoming a permissive environment for terrorists."

The U.S. military is already gearing up for this outcome, but not for victory any longer.

...

The biggest problem with the new embrace of containment in this era, of course, is that it is largely unconsciousand it has gone unacknowledged in public. It may be time to call it by its name.
 

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Monadnock

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Newsweek...isn't that the one they found a few issues of in Hamas military leader's room? :)

Israelis Capture West Bank Hamas Commander
5/23/2006

"The two apartments were sparsely furnished with bamboo chairs and mattresses. A reporter touring the hideout saw two copies of Newsweek magazine on the floor."
 

Bigshadow

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Monadnock said:
Newsweek...isn't that the one they found a few issues of in Hamas military leader's room? :)

Israelis Capture West Bank Hamas Commander
5/23/2006

"The two apartments were sparsely furnished with bamboo chairs and mattresses. A reporter touring the hideout saw two copies of Newsweek magazine on the floor."

Ahhhh the Irony! Coincidence or planned?
 
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