The war in Iraq

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john2054

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It's not a personal attack, if someone is glorifying his own violence he cannot then make unfounded allegations against others. if I were to attack him on a personal basis there would be no doubt it was a very personal attack but I cannot see that someone who boasts about his own violence has the right to then smear others for what he perceives as their violence. I didn't make personal remarks about him, unlike his about me, I haveing insulted him, unlike his posts calling me a liar, I haven't called BS unlike others. I am pointing out the fact that someone who boasts on here of his own violence who then accuses me and others of violence against innocence civilians is an unfounded allegation and smear. His is the persoanal attack that needs questioning which I notice you don't even when his outbursts against me were personal. Mine wasn't a personal attack, believe me you'll know when and if I made one of those, I'm sorry you thought it was but it wasn't.

Calling soldiers and terrorists murderous bad people, is not hypocracy but a matter of fact. What's more I have never boasted about the fights I have been in, illegal though they may have been. But merely described them as a matter of fact. This violence is not something which I am proud of. What's more I don't ever remember making personal attacks as to your character integrity. And I don't remember calling you a liar. If I did I am sorry, what's more I take this back. We all make mistakes right? Just these mistakes can cost lives. Please never forget this.
 

Tez3

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The self same 'murderous' soldiers are the same ones who fought against the Nazis to allow you to be able to speak your mind, the self same 'murderous soldiers' are the ones you will expect to do your fighting for you if we ever are threatened again. the soldiers are the ones who do the things you don't want to, they pick up rubbish when the dustmen are on strike, they carrying the sick and injured when the ambulance men are on strike, they put out the fires when the firemen are on strike. The servicemen are the ones who carry out those caught by floods, they rescue people taken by pirates, they were the ones who had to dig up the bodies of those massacred in the Balkans so that those responsible could be brought to justice and the dead could be identified. Those servicemen are the ones who make sure you sleep safely in your bed, they risk their lives for you whenever it's necessary and they do it willingly. They defend you and pick up the pieces when it all goes pear shaped. You can 'wash your hands' of them, but don't forget how many died in Europe and Asia during the last war so that you are allowed to say you revile them.

These btw are the anti war protestors, note the violence they seem to enjoy, there's plenty more both here in America if you wish to Google.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-violent-clashes-erupt-streets-Brighton.html

As for your violence I think you are being a bit disingenuous here, we both know it's not the fighting I was referring to.







I hthink you don't have any idea of what our soldiers are doing out in Afghan, I don't think you know how they work and what it's like for them. There's not one of them doesn't want us to come out of there but while they are there they will try to make a difference in people lives for the better, they serve their country unstintingly and unselfishly, if their country lets them down by sending them off to wars that are unjust then it has to be addressed to those who send them not the soldiers. No one likes war but wars happen sometimes they are unavoidable if we want to keep our freedom, some wars we should stay right out of. Some wars we go in as peace keepers to stop the fighting as in Cyprus and other places, the self same soldiers are the ones who take all the risks. I repeat my challenge to you, come up here, to the largest garrison in Europe and explain to the soldiers why you think they are murderers and deserve to die. You should of course travel to Afghan and tell the insurgents there, in between them bombing the schools, throwing acid in schoolgirls faces and burying IEDs for the locals to walk on, that you think they are wrong too. disabuse yourself of the idea that Afghanistan or Iraq were utopias of freedom, they are pretty lousy countries to live in, that doesn't justify wars but it does mean that while our troops are there, they at least even if the politicians, the would be politicians and the peace protestors don't do anything to help the people they are trying to. You can go on your peace marches with everyones blessing, you have the right, hard won by soldiers, to speak your mind but remember where that freedom came from, you wouldn't have it under the Nazis, that's for sure. Remember too that while you are shouting about soldiers fighting those self same soldiers are also the ones delivering medical care to the people who wouldn't receive it otherwise, they are also the ones who won't fire on civilians so risk being shot themselves, they are also the ones who try not to actually kill the civilians but yes they will kill the insurgents, you shoot at soldiers they will shoot you back. Should they be there? Who knows, the fact is you can play 'what if' all day but they are there and they are trying very hard not to make the situation any worst. The Afghan police and army are being trained up to take over, they do a lot of the patrols there now anyway. They are totally random about who they shoot, a medic friend of mine had to try to patch up a 3 year old Afghan girl they shot. She kept her alive long enough for the Americans to take her by helicopter to hospital where she survived. The female engagement teams out there do tremendous work and it's the ethos of the armed forces that makes them want to help as much as they can, they will not however be attacked with impunity however. There are instructions on when they can fire back these are adhered too as much as is practicable. Despite what you think the soldiers aren't happy at civilians deaths, don't be under any illusion however that the insurgents they are fighting aren't trained soldiers, they are and good ones at that. Mistakes, misunderstandings and just sheer stupidness happen in war as they do in peacetime, the Allies have killed innocents, and will do so again sadly, and it is sad, it's a tragedy, and very very regretable, the soldiers do feel sorrow, as they do when it's a blue on blue but if there's a mistake made they try to rectify it, it's it's deliberate they will punish because we are trying to do the right thing, not much you might think if your family is the one killed. How much worse then is it to be blown up by your own people, to have suicide bombers taret the markets, the schools and the towns? How much worse to have the insurgents come and kill the men in your village because they can, how much worse is it that your children are maimed and killed by IEDs planted by your own people? We will leave Afghan, sooner rather than later we hope, but we also hope that while being there was regrettable we have at least done something to atone for it all when those who have cause the problems the Taliban and Al Queda are unrepentant at all the deaths and suffering they have caused?
 
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Sukerkin

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Very well said, good lady. Passion and eloquence simultaneously there.
 

Makalakumu

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If our society wants to empower groups of people to use force in order to dictate how others should live, we're in big trouble. If our society wants to empower people to take life when we're not engaged in self defense, we're in big trouble. It all bounces back...and lets be really clear...the people who can justify both of those things are the ones who throw other people into prison/re-education camps. Let's hope it doesn't get that far, but it should be noted that the pieces for it to go that far are falling into place.
 

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One of the biggest exports from Afghanistan apart from terrorism is drugs, the ones that are peddled to our children sometimes at the school gates. Opium is their biggest crop, the Taliban are fighting for the right to keep supplying the world with illegal drugs as much as anything else. These aren't 'freedom fighters' who are fighting off invaders, these are drug and warlords who are fighting to maintain their control over a very lucrative crop which brings misery to hundreds of thousands. So who's dictating to whom about how to live? These 'freedom fighters' who hold the locals in terror, who force the men to wear bearfs, small children to be killed for flying kites and throw acid int he face of schoolgirls or the 'invaders' who are trying to empower the women, free the tribes people fromt he stranglehold of the Taliban and give back to the people control of their own country?

The United States was formed by war, Americans fought for their independance seeing themselves as a free people, it's seems strange now that you want to deny that to others by deciding that living under the Taliban is 'freedom'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...of-seven-was-hanged-to-punish-his-family.html
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/6185.htm

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~mvcarmac/women2.html

As for the talk of camps, I really think you are being overly melodramatic for effect. Try to imagine yourself as a woman in Afghanistan then see how 'freedom' tastes.
 

Makalakumu

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One of the biggest exports from Afghanistan apart from terrorism is drugs, the ones that are peddled to our children sometimes at the school gates. Opium is their biggest crop, the Taliban are fighting for the right to keep supplying the world with illegal drugs as much as anything else. These aren't 'freedom fighters' who are fighting off invaders, these are drug and warlords who are fighting to maintain their control over a very lucrative crop which brings misery to hundreds of thousands. So who's dictating to whom about how to live? These 'freedom fighters' who hold the locals in terror, who force the men to wear bearfs, small children to be killed for flying kites and throw acid int he face of schoolgirls or the 'invaders' who are trying to empower the women, free the tribes people fromt he stranglehold of the Taliban and give back to the people control of their own country?

The United States was formed by war, Americans fought for their independance seeing themselves as a free people, it's seems strange now that you want to deny that to others by deciding that living under the Taliban is 'freedom'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...of-seven-was-hanged-to-punish-his-family.html
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/6185.htm

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~mvcarmac/women2.html

As for the talk of camps, I really think you are being overly melodramatic for effect. Try to imagine yourself as a woman in Afghanistan then see how 'freedom' tastes.

I wish it were just melodrama. With the new NDAA legislation, people can be locked up forever with new due process. You can be disappeared. The tyranny overseas becomes a tyranny of mind at home. The two ideas, that we can kill to get what we want and use force to make people live how we say, grease the skids on the slippery slope.

The Taliban don't deserve to be wiped out because of their religious zealotry any more then Christians who used religion to justify holding slaves. Social change can happen without interventionism...and we wouldn't really even have this problem if we didn't give the Taliban weapons and money in the first place.

Regarding drugs, in 1999, the Taliban actually cracked down on the production of opium to the point where 96% of the crop disappeared. When the allies invaded, production of drugs skyrocketed. Now, we have Hamid Karzai's brother selling huge amounts of it with strong ties to our CIA. We also have US marines guarding poppy fields for friendly locals.

The drugs on the streets are the products of your tax dollars. The 500 billion dollar industry is being protected and perpetrated by allied weapons. How's that for a reason to get out of Afghanistan NOW?
 

Tez3

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I wish it were just melodrama. With the new NDAA legislation, people can be locked up forever with new due process. You can be disappeared. The tyranny overseas becomes a tyranny of mind at home. The two ideas, that we can kill to get what we want and use force to make people live how we say, grease the skids on the slippery slope.

The Taliban don't deserve to be wiped out because of their religious zealotry any more then Christians who used religion to justify holding slaves. Social change can happen without interventionism...and we wouldn't really even have this problem if we didn't give the Taliban weapons and money in the first place.

Regarding drugs, in 1999, the Taliban actually cracked down on the production of opium to the point where 96% of the crop disappeared. When the allies invaded, production of drugs skyrocketed. Now, we have Hamid Karzai's brother selling huge amounts of it with strong ties to our CIA. We also have US marines guarding poppy fields for friendly locals.

The drugs on the streets are the products of your tax dollars. The 500 billion dollar industry is being protected and perpetrated by allied weapons. How's that for a reason to get out of Afghanistan NOW?

So I expect what we saw in Afghan is just Scotch Mist then if 96% of the crop disappeared.

Damn right the Taliban should be wiped out, not because of their religious beleifs but for their sheer criminal, inhumane, disgusting and downright nasty habits of hanging children, throwing acid in girls faces, whipping people, murdering, torturing, I surely don't need to go on. showing tolerance for the Taliban is like showing tolerance for the Nazis or the Inquisition, it's mind blowing stupid to tolerate such monsters. You simplify things so much it all sounds so easy written down, well I'm afraid it's not that simple in practice. perhaps though believeing everything you see on Fox makes life easier for those who want to betray their country by blaming them for everything. There's been mistakes by the Allies but to show tolerance for inhuman monsters is going too far.
And yes we would have this problem even if we hadn't armed them because they are warlords and criminals and they do what warlords and criminals do do...make war,peddle drugs and make good peoples lives hell on earth.
 

Tez3

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The Taliban
http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/6185.htm


http://www.rawa.org/nbc.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2007407,00.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-nose-ears-hacked-trying-flee-cruel-laws.html
http://www.rawa.org/zarmeena2.htm



If a country committed such crimes against an ethnic group or a particular religion/political group the world would demand action but it's only women, only half the population, only those who cannot fight. So we have the apologists for the Taliban 'it's their way', 'it's their religion', 'we can't interfere'. However the Taliban are carrying out a Holocaust on women, they persecute them, enslave them, murder and torture them. We may have gone into Afghanistan for all the wrong reasons but by god we'll come out leaving it a better place whatever the apologists think.

http://www.afghan-web.com/articles/story.html
 

Makalakumu

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Showing tolerance for the Taliban is like showing tolerance for the Nazis or the Inquisition, it's mind blowing stupid to tolerate such monsters.

http://www.rawa.org/cia-talib.htm

[SIZE=+3][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+3][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]"It also means turning our back on history, Afghanistan today is the product of a war fought by other on its soil. The US and its allies piled this country with Stinger missiles and cash to fuel the Mujahideen's opposition against Soviet occupation. They encouraged the growth of Islamic fundamentalism to frighten Moscow and of drugs to get Soviet soldiers hooked. The CIA even helped "Arab Afghans" like Osama bin Ladin, now "America's most wanted", to fight here. When the Soviet fled Kabul, US money and interest also evaporated, leaving a terrible mess. Whether we like it or not, the Taliban is part of the West's legacy of intrusion followed by neglect and Afghanistan is the last orphan of the Cold War." [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

It looks like the Taliban are the product of interventionism. Why do you think you can solve this problem with more interventionism? What if we leave and Afghan goes to hell again? Do we go back and try to fix it? How many times has the West gone into Afghan in order to "fix" them? What about other areas of the Earth that have traditions that we consider barbaric? Do we invade them all and attempt to show them the wrongness of their ways with our bullets and bombs?

What if war isn't a solution to this mess?
 
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john2054

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Hi Tez and others, thanks for your comments, and insightful remarks about the armed services in Afghanistan. I suppose that I have to agree with you that now we are there, it is important that we try and do our best. And by we I mean you me and our soldiers. I also think that it's a shame that such a culture of machoism and bravardary has built up, not just amongst the armed forces, but in general by the right wing classes in this country. Just look at how Cameron is stripping back from the welfare state, to in what is effect, line his greasy pockets. And do not think that I have not had similar problems at home. Without going into detail, I will say that I have, and my finances are out of my hands, instead being managed by a group of well paid and self righteous solicitors. Who just about pay me enough to keep me off the bread line.

Back to the soldiers, well if you remember that I said that this war which they, if not started, then saturated themselves in once it had already begun, has soon turned around to bite themselves on the derry air. But of course it wasn't the soldiers who made the decision to goto war, but their right wing paymasters. Tony Blair and the lib cons. I would have them shot as well. By the way that is a figurative way of speaking. I never called you a liar tez, indeed as far as I can see you do a good job at adding a valued and valuable contribution to the site. And I am glad to see that you have got a good working relationship with the soldiers in your know. Thanks for your offer to visit them, but the last soldier i talked to (TA) looked right through me as if I wasn't there. And I don't much fancy facing up to this highly trained group of experts, without any friends around. God only knows I've got few enough friends as it is.

I think you think that I'm some kind of traitor for opposing the war and opposing the deaths by the British men's bullets. Well in the time of war it is quite understandable that you can think like that. But at school I was always picked last for the football teams. I mean sports was a big no no for me back then. I WAS good at drama, and got quite a lot out of that for what it is worth. But my athletic and certainly cardiovascular appeal is a n sum nil. That being said I did take up Aikido for a couple of months a couple of years ago, before I was taken into hospital for a, rowing with my dr and b, fighting for my own good reasons. So I had to pack it in, and have chosen not to restart it just yet while I am studying for my undergraduate degree. I'd like to point out that trust me, no matter how great these external enemies are, the drs in the mental health services, with their powers are also not to be underestimated.

In think that I'm beginning to repeat myself now, and I also don't want to offend the admin of this site by stepping too far off the mark, so I'm going to leave it right there. Good luck.
 

Tez3

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Actually I don't think you are a traitor for opposing the war, it's a right that has been fought for, oxymoron that may be but true all the same. I'm not sure if you saw the real army you would be so sure they are 'macho' and saturated in war, they are normal blokes who like a drink, a shag and a fight with the RMPs ( but then everyone likes afight with the RMPs lol, they are just numpties) they are however professional soldiers. The Israeli military has a saying, it's that war shuld be the last resort like surgery, it should only come after every other cure has been tried and then like surgery it should be sharp and as short as possible, get in do the job and out, the British army is vey like that. We don't do the macho, the posturing, the 'honour of serving your country bit, it's the honour of the regiment and all for your mates. The TA, shouldn't be considered proper soldiers, they are 'weekend warriors', if they were any reall good they'd be regulars so don't judge the army by one STAB (Stupid TA Bastard). I've seen and been with soldiers who have cried, laughed, cross dressed, got drunk, saved lives, took lives and they are the funniest., most annoying little buggers going, they don't like authority, truly despite what you might think lol, are kind, will nick anything that isn't nailed down, will chat up your wife, daughter, sister with aplomb and will lay down their lives for their fellow soldiers.

There's a good book out, it's called Six Months without Sundays, it's the story of the Scots Guards on their last tour in Afghan, it's an interesting read. I know most of the guys in it.


Makalakumu, inaction has killed far more than action did. You've ignored totally anything I've posted about the treatment of women in Afghanistan. I can only assume when you say the people will be 'ok' if we pulled out now that youhaven't given consideration to the treatment of women by these monsters. Interventionism didn't cause the Taliban to treat women this way, their own evil did. If you can countanance such evil and all you can say is oh well it's the culture I think you need to think very carefully about what you think is acceptable. You may also want to read what I've said and not make it up as you go along, I said...that we may have gone in for all the wrong reason but we are there and we can try to at least make things better. You are blinkered by your own thoughts and you are constantly missing what I am saying. You have your own conversation going on in your head between me and you only you don't have understand what I'm saying. You come across as an apologist for the Taliban and it's hateful treatment of women, and like David I think I'm done here too. Should the Taliban be destroyed? Ask women, we'll tell you hell yes.
 

Makalakumu

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Makalakumu, inaction has killed far more than action did.

This is the first commandment in the Official State Religion. We must intervene or more people will die. The truth is that interventionism has only brought us an unending trail of tears and sorrow. The unintended consequences reverberate through history and always come back to haunt us. From President Wilson's decision to bring the US into WWI which led to the disastrous Versailles Treaty and ultimately led to WWII, to our decision to use the Mujahedin against the Russians, to our backing of Al-qaeda like groups in Libya, who immediately turned around and massacred black africans, our intervention has only spurred the cycle of violence down into greater and greater depths of hell.

Like all religions, the state religion is false. It's idols are the masks for human evil.

You've ignored totally anything I've posted about the treatment of women in Afghanistan. I can only assume when you say the people will be 'ok' if we pulled out now that you haven't given consideration to the treatment of women by these monsters.

We're responsible for the Taliban's power in Afghanistan. If we hadn't armed them and given them money, they wouldn't have been able to take power like they did. So, now they are in power and surely we must do something? Underlying that proposition is the same assumption that makes the Taliban so evil...and produces the same results.

I would post pictures of women scarred by the Taliban's acid in the face treatment and women whose faces melted from hellfire missiles launched from drones, but it violates MT policies. Guess what? The results are the same. The idea that you can use force to make another group of people live the way you want them to is evil. It produces evil results. It dehumanizes one group of people so that it's okay for another to dominate them. The women the Taliban murder are lesser creatures, worthy of being subjugated, and totally abused when they disobey or dishonor the family. To the allies in Afghanistan, the women that are murdered are Bugsplat.

And, according to a 2003 Washington Post story, it's the name of a Defense Department computer program for calculating collateral damage, as well as, apparently, casual terminology among Pentagon operation planners and the like to refer to the collateral damage itself ... you know, the dead civilians. CIA drone operators talk about bugsplat. The British organization Reprieve calls its effort to track the number of people killed by U.S. drone strikes — in Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen — Project Bugsplat.

It's all being done for the greater good of course. The Taliban believe that God is on their side and the allies (depending the propaganda that's been used to support this war) tell you it's being done to help the poor people who live there. The Taliban are evil monsters and must be destroyed...for the good of all.

You may have heard that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, well that seems to hold true in this case.

Interventionism didn't cause the Taliban to treat women this way, their own evil did. If you can countanance such evil and all you can say is oh well it's the culture I think you need to think very carefully about what you think is acceptable.

On the contrary, I think you need to think very carefully about what you (and others) think is acceptable. The reverberations from this intervention will only spawn more pain and suffering. You may wish to use Sauron's Ring for good, but the power of Mordor is in it and it will only turn you into what you fought against.

You may also want to read what I've said and not make it up as you go along, I said...that we may have gone in for all the wrong reason but we are there and we can try to at least make things better. You are blinkered by your own thoughts and you are constantly missing what I am saying. You have your own conversation going on in your head between me and you only you don't have understand what I'm saying.

I understand clearly what you and others have been saying about the war. I've decided that I'm not going to hold back and speak the required slogans that would make me popular. There is a real issue of right and wrong here and I've been pointing this out the entire time.

You come across as an apologist for the Taliban and it's hateful treatment of women, and like David I think I'm done here too. Should the Taliban be destroyed? Ask women, we'll tell you hell yes.

How do we change the Taliban's hearts and minds without turning the bystanding public into bugsplat (and never mind the drug issue btw - there is so much hidden from us about this war that even now I know we're just discussing a particular bit of propaganda).

Peace, freedom, and trade spread attitudes that respected human rights (war rolls them back). That's how they spread in our culture. Why would you expect it to be any different for any other group of people?

I know the answer. You were taught it differently from the holy pulpit of the state religion. It's always been just another slogan to justify interventionism.
 

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, they are normal blokes who like a drink, a shag and a fight with the RMPs ( but then everyone likes afight with the RMPs lol, they are just numpties) . .

You need to start speaking American cause I have no clue what that says
 
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john2054

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Hi Tez, I want to say this so as to offend the absolute minimum number of people as possible, and I am very sorry about the boys killed over in Afghanistan recently, but I fear that their armoured personnel carrier, rather than being hit by an i.e.d., in fact ran over a discarded cluster bomb munition and so was in fact a friendly fire incident.

Also what do you think of the recent hostile overtones made both here by Cameron and in America by the Boston tea party candidates threatening war with Iran? Don't you think that the two wars we have waged over there has done enough damage already? And yeah that's right I said damage. With a capital D.
 

Tez3

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Hi Tez, I want to say this so as to offend the absolute minimum number of people as possible, and I am very sorry about the boys killed over in Afghanistan recently, but I fear that their armoured personnel carrier, rather than being hit by an i.e.d., in fact ran over a discarded cluster bomb munition and so was in fact a friendly fire incident.

Also what do you think of the recent hostile overtones made both here by Cameron and in America by the Boston tea party candidates threatening war with Iran? Don't you think that the two wars we have waged over there has done enough damage already? And yeah that's right I said damage. With a capital D.


No, it was an IED no doubt at all.
 
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john2054

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How can you be so sure TEZ. They dropped a lot of bombs over Iraq. More in fact than were dropped by BOTH sides during the whole of world war two! Then is it hardly surprising that they run over one or two in their off road vehicle exercises? And the same can be said for Afghanistan and this situation there. But of course you still haven't answered my second point, that of Iran. Are you really so headstrong as to wish us to invade yet another country (by all but the name), and thus commit us and others to the pay back and consequent reparations for the foreseeable future?

What's more did you also hear about that American soldier today who ran berserk and took out some fifteen innocent Afghani civilians? Now that's hardly warranted is it? I am just saying.
 

Tez3

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How can you be so sure TEZ. They dropped a lot of bombs over Iraq. More in fact than were dropped by BOTH sides during the whole of world war two! Then is it hardly surprising that they run over one or two in their off road vehicle exercises? And the same can be said for Afghanistan and this situation there. But of course you still haven't answered my second point, that of Iran. Are you really so headstrong as to wish us to invade yet another country (by all but the name), and thus commit us and others to the pay back and consequent reparations for the foreseeable future?

What's more did you also hear about that American soldier today who ran berserk and took out some fifteen innocent Afghani civilians? Now that's hardly warranted is it? I am just saying.


I've said nothing about Iran, I don't know where you got the idea I want to do anything there. Headstrong has nothing to do with it. I've not expressed any thoghts on Iran at all.

Yes I know it was an IED in Afghan, I'm not going to tell you how I know but it was definitely an IED.


No one is suggesting or even thinking that a soldier who went rogue is justified in killing civilians, tbh he could just have likely turned on his own people if he's in the frame of mind that allows no rational thoughts or is mentally ill. We've had similiar killings here in the UK as well as Europe and America. It's not sanctioned, it's not policy and I can tell you that the military will be as sorry as anyone that it happened. The soldier is in custody now, as much for his own safety as anything else. His own troops will not tolerate what was done by him.
 
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