The war in Iraq

john2054

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I am posting this thread in the full knowledge that I have already had at least three of my ready present threads taking down due to trolling. So anyway, I have been on about four marches in London, some years ago protesting against this war. One of those marches acruing over some three hundred thousand of us. These were important moments, and times. For both England, and the world as a whole, in some way. I am against the war. If the SAS are as good as they claim to be, they should have taken him out a long time before he was caught, and ended the whole thing before it had started. Instead what we have is a failed state, and a war where civilian deaths impinge upon a million (see the Lancet review also this guardian article...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq?INTCMP=SRCH.) This is simply unacceptable in today's day and age, I would hazard to mention.
 

Touch Of Death

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I am posting this thread in the full knowledge that I have already had at least three of my ready present threads taking down due to trolling. So anyway, I have been on about four marches in London, some years ago protesting against this war. One of those marches acruing over some three hundred thousand of us. These were important moments, and times. For both England, and the world as a whole, in some way. I am against the war. If the SAS are as good as they claim to be, they should have taken him out a long time before he was caught, and ended the whole thing before it had started. Instead what we have is a failed state, and a war where civilian deaths impinge upon a million (see the Lancet review also this guardian article...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq?INTCMP=SRCH.) This is simply unacceptable in today's day and age, I would hazard to mention.
It would seem that it is.
Sean
 

billc

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That Lancet article was debunked a long time ago...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/24696_Lancets_Iraq_Study-_Bogus_Possibly_Fraudulent

Remember the study released last year by British medical journal The Lancet that ludicrously claimed more than 650,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the Iraq War? The study that was seized upon by “anti-war” groups, and is now cited as fact and repeated endlessly in the propaganda from International ANSWER, CODEPINK, Stop the War Coalition and every other loony left organization on the planet?
Now, a damning peer review has come to the conclusion that the Lancet’s study has “no scientific standing”—and may in fact be fraudulent.

The authors ignore contrary evidence, cherry-pick and manipulate supporting evidence and evade inconvenient questions,” contends Professor Spagat, who believes the paper was poorly reviewed. “They published a sampling methodology that can overestimate deaths by a wide margin but respond to criticism by claiming that they did not actually follow the procedures that they stated.” The paper had “no scientific standing”. Did he rule out the possibility of fraud? “No.”If you factor in politics, the heat increases. One of the Lancet authors, Dr Les Roberts, campaigned for a Democrat seat in the US House of Representatives and has spoken out against the war. Dr Richard Horton, Editor of the Lancet is also antiwar.

The article was debunking the lancet was released in 2008(?)
 
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john2054

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Unfortunately Billhichak, you cannot claim that an official peer reviewed article from a prestigious publication such as the lancet, which carried out house to house surveys of iraqi mortality rates and in anything was an underestimation of the total casualty figures, on account of the internal 'civil' war fractures now erupting in the country post invasion, is 'debunked' by a London economist's exertion. That is like saying that the burning of the Quran in Afghanistan is an accidental mistake. Try saying that to the millions of Afghanis who have been so outraged by this terrible act. I am sorry my friend, it just won't wash.
 
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Bill Mattocks

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I am posting this thread in the full knowledge that I have already had at least three of my ready present threads taking down due to trolling. So anyway, I have been on about four marches in London, some years ago protesting against this war. One of those marches acruing over some three hundred thousand of us. These were important moments, and times. For both England, and the world as a whole, in some way. I am against the war. If the SAS are as good as they claim to be, they should have taken him out a long time before he was caught, and ended the whole thing before it had started. Instead what we have is a failed state, and a war where civilian deaths impinge upon a million (see the Lancet review also this guardian article...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq?INTCMP=SRCH.) This is simply unacceptable in today's day and age, I would hazard to mention.

What would you propose as a solution?
 

Tez3

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'If the SAS were as good as they say they are'.... they are, as are other special forces units, both ours and the Americans however they don't act independently, they take their orders from Her Majesty's Government. They aren't mavericks zapping around the place bumping people off.
Several things have led me to believe you aren't from the UK, are you a citizen, I wonder because you make the mistake foreigners do of calling the UK 'England'. The peace marches are important only in that it's free speech and you can march here, unlike Iraq at the time, the peace marches themselves were unimportant. The abuse our troops have received is important though and shameful, they too serve their country, in the UK they serve their Queen as well, they have gone through hell and highwater, been wounded and gave their lives so you can go on your peace marches, remember that when you next march, remember how many died so you have that freedom in my country.
 

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When did he say it was beyond reproach. If the lancet is to have any credibility, it damn well BETTER be able to retract a statement or article. That is part and parcel to the whole PEER REVIEW concept.

But that does not mean it will be automatically be rebuked by one economist on an article in littlegreenfootballs.com

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Makalakumu

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...remember that when you next march, remember how many died so you have that freedom in my country.

How many people who served died for the freedom to march peacefully in Iraq?

The answer isn't going to please many people.

The solution is to not get involved in these wars in the first place.
 

Tez3

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How many people who served died for the freedom to march peacefully in Iraq?

The answer isn't going to please many people.

The solution is to not get involved in these wars in the first place.


I was addressing someone who is not a citizen of my country who is criticising it while taking advantage of the freedom this country offers. He has the right to march through London, as people should, that concerns me, not whether people have the right to march through Iraq's streets. You do not blame servicemen ie the SAS for not 'taking out' another country's leader, it's not in their remit to make calls like killing leaders off their own bat. Blame governments, the UN whoever but not the servicemen.
 
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john2054

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Hold on there tez. I was born in Manchester in 1981. Please be more careful the next time you call out someones nationality ok? And I know that a lot of our boys have died in Iraq, but bearing in mind that they shouldn't have been there to begin with, this was an illegal war on the breach on one of the first united nation's charter points that no country in the un should attack another country within it, without due provocation. And that is clearly something which the uk did NOT have. And please note i am not making this up, it is something an attourney general from France made clear to us at one of the rallys. War is a dirty business. I wash my hands of the whole thing!
 

Tez3

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Hold on there tez. I was born in Manchester in 1981. Please be more careful the next time you call out someones nationality ok? And I know that a lot of our boys have died in Iraq, but bearing in mind that they shouldn't have been there to begin with, this was an illegal war on the breach on one of the first united nation's charter points that no country in the un should attack another country within it, without due provocation. And that is clearly something which the uk did NOT have. And please note i am not making this up, it is something an attourney general from France made clear to us at one of the rallys. War is a dirty business. I wash my hands of the whole thing!

If you were born in Manchester why were your other posts implying otherwise as well as going on about other stuff? No, don't answer I don't think I'm that bothered. Now you are implying that the soldiers who were killed don't matter because they shouldn't have been there anyway. You can wash your hands of it all but frankly, I'm not bothered at all what you think. The soldiers were doing their duty serving their country, if their country has let them down that's one thing but to suggest it doesn't matter they died ( females as well before you start with the 'our boys again') becaus they shouldn't have been there I find offensive. I don't believe we should have gone to war with Iraq but I support and always will the military who do a damn fine job and sacrifice a lot.
 
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john2054

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Here are some important vids my mate showed me, that i think you should see!



http://collateralmurder.com/

Watch the vids, i've said my bit.

Note if this is the military you are so proud of, opening fire and killing innocent civs, i'm sorry tez but you and me are from different worlds. I say their actions are SHAMEFUL, and they bring SHAME to me and MY COUNTRY, and neither do I want them to be associated with me, or nor do I want any scummy backbiters like you to have anything to do with us either. Keep your politics and your hypocritical oaths to yourself, OK?
 
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Tez3

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So, let me summarise, you think the deaths of British soldiers unimportant because they shouldn't have been there anyway and the American soldiers are murdering bastards? Yep, you've certainly said your bit. :uhohh:
 

Tez3

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Here are some important vids my mate showed me, that i think you should see!



http://collateralmurder.com/

Watch the vids, i've said my bit.

Note if this is the military you are so proud of, opening fire and killing innocent civs, i'm sorry tez but you and me are from different worlds. I say their actions are SHAMEFUL, and they bring SHAME to me and MY COUNTRY, and neither do I want them to be associated with me, or nor do I want any scummy backbiters like you to have anything to do with us either. Keep your politics and your hypocritical oaths to yourself, OK?



So much for being a peaceful person, it's alright I forgive you.
 
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john2054

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Note I come on here to express my democratically entitled right to express my free opinion, and I immediately get negative feedback, calling me a troll. And telling me to go away. Well guess what, I am staying put. If you want me gone, conjure up a reason to ban me and then be rid. Until then, and I am not breaking the rules by saying this, but sorry here i stay!
 

Josh Oakley

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Chill, guy. If you're going to soapbox about your freedom of speech, keep in mind that your detractors have the same freedom of speech you do. Even Tez.



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Bill Mattocks

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Note I come on here to express my democratically entitled right to express my free opinion, and I immediately get negative feedback, calling me a troll. And telling me to go away. Well guess what, I am staying put. If you want me gone, conjure up a reason to ban me and then be rid. Until then, and I am not breaking the rules by saying this, but sorry here i stay!

Let me address a couple things.

First, just so you know, I have not given you negative feedback or called you a troll. If someone else did, I can't help that. But know it was not me. I sign my negative feedbacks.

Second, this forum is private property. Neither you nor I have any 'right' to express any opinions whatsoever. Period. Bob's the owner, and what he says goes. If he allows you (or me) to speak our minds, that's his right to do so or to prohibit it if he feels like it. "Freedom of speech" is a right that can be upheld or denied by governments; private citizens and property owners have no obligation whatsoever to offer you a platform to say whatever you want to.

Third, I asked a very basic question. Assuming that your comments about the war in Iraq are accurate (and I am not saying they are, I am simply allowing that they are for the sake of argument), what is it you think should be done? That's a basic question. Very simple. Please answer.

Just posting your opinion that the war in Iraq was bad and the people involved in it are all criminals means what, exactly? What is it that you want to be done? Given that we cannot turn back time, what is your proposal?

If you do not have a proposal, and simply wanted to state your opinion about the war in Iraq, consider it noted. Not much else to discuss, right?
 

Josh Oakley

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But if you want the mods to lock up a thread, the surest way is to complain about your rep... Or bring it up at all, really, at least on the public forum. If you have a problem with your rep, bring it up with the moderators.

Besides.. its just green and red dots. It's not exactly a huge deal.

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Bill Mattocks

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Besides.. its just green and red dots. It's not exactly a huge deal.

And I'm color-blind. I can't tell which ones are red and which ones green unless the person leaving feedback give me some kind of indication in the text of the feedback itself. I'm sure I've gotten negative feedbacks and thought it was positive. "I can't believe you went there!" OK, is that good or bad that I went there? :)

Which is why I find the entire thing a bit on the silly side.
 

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