We have one relatively newbie teacher in our area who refers to themselves as "Master" and wants to be formally addressed as such. Your thoughts? Some of the most accomplished masters I've encountered never refer to themselves as such, but others refer to them respectfully as Sensei, Sifu, or Master. I'm starting to wonder if seeing a self-titled "Master" teacher should raise skepticism. Thoughts? Anyone encounter a "master" and call them something else or call them out?
The Title of Martial Arts Master
- Thread starter Stargazer
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I don't know; inside or outside of the dojo/dojang/studio?
Personally, I introduce myself as Mister Sullivan. Outside of class, I'm Daniel. I prefer to keep dojo etiquette and honorifics in the dojo in any case.
Would you consider it odd if a doctor made the same request? Or a priest? Or a military officer?
I don't entertain thoughts of skepticism unless I'm considering training in the school where they teach. I have never encountered a master outside of an MA studio who has ever asked me to address him as such. If I do, I will tell him how cool it is that I hold the title as well. If he wants me to call him 'Master' when we meet in the hardware store, then he would no doubt be happy to return the favor. I suspect that that would take the wind out of his sails without my being rude to him.
If I am meeting him in his studio, then I will address him by the appropriate title. If he introduces himself as "Master Smith" and/or his students are addressing him as "Master Smith," I will be happy to do so; it is his studio and I am his guest.
As for calling him out, really?
TKDTony2179
Blue Belt
If I every reach that status I may advertise with it but wont ask people to call me that. It would be up to them to do that. By my understanding master or grand master is giving to you by your peers so to ask for it may cause people not to respect you.
I've only come across one guy that called himself 'Master' and his performance was a joke. Although in fairness, not many people in Australia would ask to be addressed that way. I have met several others who could be legitimately referred to as Masters and they use 'Sensei'.
:asian:
:asian:
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
Like others near 50 years of it. A large part of it actually teaching in Japan. So I'm stuck with 'Sensei'. I do have the highest*attainable level in Jovi do and Yudansha level in more than one art. Then I came back to the West for a holiday to find one of my Shodan is now Grand master, World Council of whatever posing with gold stripes! What a joke! When people come to your training it's proof of what you do. Just treat the "masters"as annoying mosquitoes.
I think the biggest joke of all is people actually write it after their name. That's real masturbation.
I think the biggest joke of all is people actually write it after their name. That's real masturbation.
Zero
Master Black Belt
That would be kinda interesting and funny to come across one of your own students or previous students calling themselves Master. Hey, but maybe that simply means you are the "Grand Master" - congratulations, you finally have credibility in the martial arts community!! : )
lklawson
Grandmaster
I find it 100% irrelevant to me or my life. It may, from time to time, be somewhat annoying, but I don't give a crap about a person's martial arts "title" or "rank" any more. I will judge them on what they know, their experience, and how they can perform.
The title "Master" is diminished by too many who don't deserve the grade and by America's unique cultural offense at the title & unusual desire to be socially egalitarian.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Respectfully, I gotta argue with this here. This concept is uniquely modern in the U.S. and is a misconstrued understanding of certain oriental ideals. Historically speaking, modesty and humility didn't get you jack squat as a martial artist. You depended on your martial arts skills to earn a living either through successful fighting or through attaining students (the richer, the better). Neither of which were enhanced in any way by modesty and humility. Thus, historically speaking, in almost every culture, a master of martial skills wanted everybody to know about it for the same reason that an College Football coach with a championship season or an NBA star with a free-throw record wants everybody to know about it. You get better jobs, more money, cushy setups, students, and patrons.
Further, the ability to fight well is pretty much decoupled from modesty and humility as evidenced by the number of absolute douches in the top level of pretty much any combat and combat sport, everything from boxing on out. In fact, extreme high levels of confidence and "positive self image" is both a requirement for performance success and tends toward incompatibility with modesty and humility.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I'm not objecting to someone introducing themselves as sensei or even as shihan if they have been awarded those titles. 'Master' is an imprecise translation of the latter, and the meaning is more along the lines of master instructor than master (full stop). In some systems that arose here in the U.S. it may be the actual title but if you're translating your title to English for me as 'Master' and expecting to be called that, it arouses my suspicions about your skill-to-ego ratio.
Basic martial arts etiquette--full agreement.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Just to clarify; Sifu (Shifu) does not mean master, it means teacher and before anyone pops up with Sigong or Shigong....it does not mean master either, it means teacher's teacher
simplicity
Green Belt
I personally don't agree with labels.... Confinement comes to mind within that label... When someone new comes in to my school to train with, I tell them my name is John.... Master to me means their is "no more to learn"... IMU, life is always a learning process and if you're not learning, are you really living or are you just going though the motions of life... On the other hand, I'll call people what they want to be called... Its no biggy to me! (o_0)
lklawson
Grandmaster
Or in pretty much all of Europe. Masters of the martial art of swordsmanship (and several related disciplines) were called:
- English = Master
- Italian = Maestro
- Spanish = Maestro
- Mestre = Portugese
- Maitre = French
- German = Meister
Those who had "mastered" any physical "art" (like bricklaying, blacksmithing, or martial arts) or any creative discipline with a physical output (like composing, sculpting, painting, or playing a given instrument) earned the title "Master" in their given language and it was expected to be used in translation, as a title denoting their achievement and status within that discipline.
I had a post recently about the Guild origins of this title, still in use today by many "skilled/artisan craftsmen" such as Carpenters, Plumbers, Electricians, and Pipe Welders. Apprentice -> Journeyman -> Master.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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So far as I know, none of the commonly used MA titles actually translate as master. Sensei/sifu/guru/seonsaeng all mean teacher, and shihan/sabeom both translate as teacher-father.
Master as a title goes back to Europe and comes out of the guild system and from the London based Company of Masters, which certified instructors in the martial arts.
As for skill to ego ratios, when I was instructing hapkido and kumdo at a Korean school, myself and every other sadan and higher instructor that were there were introduced by the GM as "Master." The Kukkiwon uses the title in English speaking nations as the formal title of pracitioners ildan and higher. So it may actually not be ego at the core. At least if this is kept within the studio.
Which may be all that is being asked by this "Newbie teacher." I have not seen it clarified by the OP as to whether or not this request is within or without the studio.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Still used even today in Fencing: Fencing Masters by David Glasser
I admit that it's been 20+ years since I counted in Korean, but isn't this First Dan? I was used to seeing it Chodan though.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Yes, it is.
I was pointing out that it is not a recent addition in English to the list of martial arts honorifics. In fact, the term Martial Arts originally comes from rapier fencing if memory serves.Depends on the art. Ildan means first dan. Chodan is the Korean rendering of shodan, which means beginning dan.
Kukkiwon taekwondo uses ildan. Both of my hapkido instructors and my kumdo instructor used it as well. They represent the same thing, but articulate different qualities.
Thank you for your input to my post and to my opinion on the matter of "Modesty and humility". As this may seem to be a "uniquely modern concept", I can assure you that back in my beginnings in martial arts, it was not only a requirement, but, a must for personal dojo survival.
The early 60s, when I started my journey, were hard times pertaining to the person who wanted to join and participate in a dojo. This was a time of no gear sparring with no requirement for insurance to cover any injuries. "Modesty and Humility" were taught right along with our art of Okinawan GoJu, that we studied. We were expected to maintain this concept in and outside of the dojo, at all times. Not to be confused with "meek and weak" we were taught to respect everyone unless they gave us reason not to.
Now to my point, it was required of us, as martial artists, to never draw negative attention to ourself or to our dojo but conduct ourself in the utmost respectful way. There was one exception to this rule of "Modesty and Humility" and that was on the sparring floor and in a self preservation situation out side of the dojo. Being totally modest and humble in martial arts is as bad as being always arrogant and obnoxious.
"Modesty and humility" will get a person much more respect then requiring people to call you "Master" anything.
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