The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[cfr]

Talk to guys like Hoch Hochheim, Mark Hatmaker, Jim McCann and Tim Tackett. They train people to survive, not just win a match.

Ive never had the pleasure of meeting Mr Tackett. However, Im in JKD. My instructor got certified to teach from him. My instructor and I have had this discussion and guess what? He agrees with my points! Why? Because "on paper" doesnt equal reality.

On paper street techniques: Eye gouging, groin kicks, weapons, multiple opponents, etc.

On paper sport techs: Punch, kick, clinch, ground, submission, etc.

I say on paper because theres nothing stopping either mentality from crossing over the line and employing each others techs. Again my questions, do you really believe an MMA guy wouldnt emply the street techs in a life and death scenario? Exactly how much training do you think is required to poke out an eyeball or do a groin kick? Im not saying these techs are easy because I doubt they are, but that would be for anyone, trained either way. Again, I wouldnt discredit street techs as I believe they are useful. I just dont get how or why someone would come up with these theories having no way of backing them up?

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-How in the entire friggin universe is a jab and cross combo, or knees from the clinch, or elbows from the mount not useful for the str33t?

When your arms are being held by the other 2 attackers. Or he has a gun. Or if you cannot get into the clinch.

-Some. Does anybody have effective techniques aginst mutiple opponents?

Yes they do. They tend to wear uniforms, and funny hats, and jump out of planes and fast boats, but yeah.

-See my response above just change "mutiple opponents" to "weapons".

Ok.

-No. Pull a knife on me and I WILL shoot you though.

Can you out draw the guy behind you?

-No they do not. They empiracly show what works one on one with no weapon. Some SD can look like that.

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms.

According to the FBI, muliple attackers are involved over 62% of the time.

Combined, gun and knife deaths are about 96% of the fatalities. Blunt force or other is 5-6%.

This would strongly imply that training and counting on open hand techniques against an unarmed jock is not a good reality based defense strategy.

-To do 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8 requires you to be in a dominate position with someone. MMA ground training is built around gaining a dominate position. How do you plan to do that if you don't train to do it? And what would proclude you hypothetical "300lbs champion" from training defenses against them?

-I have never claimed expertise, but I've been training in this stuff for a long time. I train with guys way heavier than me all the time. Sometimes I'm the hammer. Sometimes I'm the nail.

But all within rules. So regardless of all your "testing" you have no idea if you'd survive a real fight.

 

[cfr]

My style works.

I'm still here.

Last fight wore out a pair of nikes, and ended up with a black eye and damn sore jaw. Left an impression on my opponent. He tasted awful btw. It's interesting how someone will often let you go when in a fight, you grab their groin and purr at them.

And you think an MMA guy couldnt have done those things? That he would be limited to rules?

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I'm mostly in agreement with you. But, you will fight as you train. If you never train for, or always stop short, you will do that in a pinch. That is why you often hear about some poor dumb patty cake blackbelt losing a street fight. He tagged the other guy and waited for him to "uke" and got pasted as a result. It's why I liked sparring with people from 1 particular school. They only played in the safe zone. Head shots weren't allowed, so they didn't train to defend. I hit them. Alot. They whined. Alot. It was fun.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Bottom line:
Yes, there are overlaps. But anything with rules is limited in it's effectiveness to test effectiveness.

NHB/UFC/Kendo/Fencing/Karate Tournaments/etc. All are a great way to test yourself and have fun within a particular set of guidelines and rules. Yes, the things that work in that environment can work in the street, IF! one trains to pull them off in the manner needed in that environment. There are ways to do that, safely. But pretending that what works in a cage fight 1 on 1 will work against 3 weapon wielding attackers is pure stupidity. Unfortunately, too many hot bloods seem to feel that their sport fighting is just as good as, or better than the stuff done by guys who do train for the real no-rules world.

 

[Hand Sword]

"What makes the grass grow?" " Blood! Blood! Blood!"


We don't train to be merciful here! Mercy is for the weak! Here, on the street, or in competition, if a man confronts you, he is the enemy! An enemy deserves no mercy!

Strike first! Strike hard! No mercy sir!

 

[Hand Sword]

Do I have the right mindset?

(I hope so. I'm at work again, and trying to get another 6 pk of pepsi--LOL!)

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

:drinkbeer :drink2tha :cheers:

Only have 4 left, but I'll split em with you!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

"What makes the grass grow?" " Blood! Blood! Blood!"


We don't train to be merciful here! Mercy is for the weak! Here, on the street, or in competition, if a man confronts you, he is the enemy! An enemy deserves no mercy!

Strike first! Strike hard! No mercy sir!

Kill Kill Kill with Cold Blue Steel?

Hooah!!!

 

[RoninPimp]

:drinkbeer :drink2tha :cheers:

Only have 4 left, but I'll split em with you!

-Drinking and posting at the same time? Tha would explain a lot. Your posts are so full of contradictions and straw men I hardly know where to begin. You even even answered a question that I asked someone else like it was directed to you. You have got to be a troll. Isn't that breaking forum rules? I'll try to respond tomorrow. It's my bedtime now...

 

[Hand Sword]

-Drinking and posting at the same time? Tha would explain a lot. Your posts are so full of contradictions and straw men I hardly know where to begin. You even even answered a question that I asked someone else like it was directed to you. You have got to be a troll. Isn't that breaking forum rules? I'll try to respond tomorrow. It's my bedtime now...

It's only Pepsi!

 

[Flying Crane]

Traditional arts such as Karate, Arnis, Kung Fu, etc, when learned from a qualified instructor, are based on techniques that -have- been battlefield tested. The mix-n-matcher who makes up his own fart is not that guy. Techniques that have been battle tested and refined do not need to be "tested", only learned, and integrated into your automatic response system.

See, regardless on if you are a big macho sweaty UFC jock, or a skinny little Wing Chun Dummy, the only real question is: When I need to pull it off, is it going to work for me?

While I agree in part with some of what you are saying, any technique that has been battlefield tested still needs to be developed by the individual to a level where it can be used. Just because it may have been battlefield tested in the past doesn't mean it will magically work without serious effort to develope your useage skill. Practicing the technique under challenging conditions is a good way to do that. I guess that would be "pressure testing".

And remember: nothing is going to work for me. Rather, I need to figure out how to use it. I am the active party, not the technique. I cannot be passive and expect material to simply "work for me".

I think MMA style training is ONE way to develop useable skills. It is not the only way, and it is not the best way for everyone. For some, if that is your interest, then yes it is, but not for others. The experience of combat in a MMA event, or in MMA training of course is not the same as real combat, but NO type of training is. Any kind of training can only approximate real combat. But I could see where the experience of MMA training, where you fight against other skilled, strong, and tough individuals, could serve you well on the street. It is no guarantee, but it could certainly be useful.

I don't think anyone would argue that Mike Tyson would be a formidable opponent on the street, and his experience is boxing which has a large set of rules with no kicks, no takedowns and such. But that doesn't mean he couldn't be tough on the street. Same thing with MMA guys.

I think the big problem is that people tend to want to take the extreme position: MMA is the ONLY way to do it; or MMA is worthless on the street. Neither position is accurate. MMA can be good on the street, but like anything else there is simply no guarantee.

 

[Hand Sword]

Yes. As always it is the individual, and their abilities to adapt, whatever style, that counts.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Drinking and posting at the same time? Tha would explain a lot. Your posts are so full of contradictions and straw men I hardly know where to begin. You even even answered a question that I asked someone else like it was directed to you. You have got to be a troll. Isn't that breaking forum rules? I'll try to respond tomorrow. It's my bedtime now...

So it might seem to a more limited intellect. But I am as much a troll as you are, though perhaps more diverse and attractive than the common mud pit troll.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

It's only Pepsi!

Yeah. Only *Burp* Pepsi. (slides bottle of rum into pocket)
:drinky:

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

While I agree in part with some of what you are saying, any technique that has been battlefield tested still needs to be developed by the individual to a level where it can be used. Just because it may have been battlefield tested in the past doesn't mean it will magically work without serious effort to develope your useage skill. Practicing the technique under challenging conditions is a good way to do that. I guess that would be "pressure testing".

And remember: nothing is going to work for me. Rather, I need to figure out how to use it. I am the active party, not the technique. I cannot be passive and expect material to simply "work for me".

I think MMA style training is ONE way to develop useable skills. It is not the only way, and it is not the best way for everyone. For some, if that is your interest, then yes it is, but not for others. The experience of combat in a MMA event, or in MMA training of course is not the same as real combat, but NO type of training is. Any kind of training can only approximate real combat. But I could see where the experience of MMA training, where you fight against other skilled, strong, and tough individuals, could serve you well on the street. It is no guarantee, but it could certainly be useful.

I don't think anyone would argue that Mike Tyson would be a formidable opponent on the street, and his experience is boxing which has a large set of rules with no kicks, no takedowns and such. But that doesn't mean he couldn't be tough on the street. Same thing with MMA guys.

I think the big problem is that people tend to want to take the extreme position: MMA is the ONLY way to do it; or MMA is worthless on the street. Neither position is accurate. MMA can be good on the street, but like anything else there is simply no guarantee.

:cheers:

 

[Hand Sword]

So it might seem to a more limited intellect. But I am as much a troll as you are, though perhaps more diverse and attractive than the common mud pit troll.

I look at myself as a wishnick!

 

[green meanie]

"And the wheels on the bus go round and round... round and round... round and round..."

 

[Xue Sheng]

-Excuse me a second while I pick my chin off the floor. So unless I'm fighting to the death in training, there's no benefit to it? You can't possibly be serious.

Ahhh no, that is not my point.

Sorry I'm late responding, I have been busy, and actually part of that was training. I have decided to train more and post less. And believe me I need the training.

Actually that is not what I am saying, if I were to say that I would be insane. I was either not clear, or what I wrote was misinterpreted or not read fully.

Training does prepare you for fighting better than the average Joe. But fighting in a ring has rules were fighting on the street does not, and no 2 fights are alike. I do not believe that fighting in the ring prepares you any better for real life fighting than true traditional Martial arts training.

As for pressure testing by going out an picking fights, that is dangerous and will eventually get those who partake in that activity seriously hurt, thrown in jail or worse.

There is always someone out there that is bigger, stronger, meaner, luckier, crazier or better trained. And if your goal is to go out and pick fights to see how good you are eventually you will run into one of these people. And if you are real lucky you will only have a brief hospital stay. That is what I mean by tough is tough.

Training is important very important, but the goal of training, at least in traditional martial arts, should be for more than fighting. Yes it is part of it, but so are self-knowledge, self-cultivations, self-confidence and just plain physical fitness and health.

I use to work with a guy, 25 years ago, that was tough, not trained in MA at all but just plain tough and a little crazy, actually as it turned out a lot crazy. Picture an old school biker with biceps the size of most peoples thighs make him 5 foot 10 inches tall and you got a good picture of what he looked like, and it is very likely he is in jail today - if we are all lucky.

This guy I worked with I will call Ben, because I do not want to give out his real name, because he is also the scariest person I have ever talked to, and long after working with Ben I worked as security in a hospital with a mental health and detox unit and Ben is still hands down the scariest person I ever knew.

Ben got pulled over on the Mass. turnpike by a Mass. State Police Officer, and if anyone is from Mass. and knows about MSP 25 years ago you know they were well trained, generally tough, and pressure tested...daily. Much the same as they are today, but with fewer rules.

After Ben got pulled over it led to him being arrested on a multiple of Vehicle violations. But it was apparently the last charge, the driving while drunk charge that set him off. Suffice to say trooper 1 ended up fighting for his life and locking himself in his car for protection and to call for back up (I have no idea why Ben was not shot due to this, could be justification, but I am not sure). Trooper 2 arrived and would not get out of his car until trooper 3 arrived (Ben was physically dismantling trooper 1's car at the time). Trooper 2 and 3 with the assistance of trooper 1 took Ben down and arrested him. Ben went to jail; trooper 1 went to the hospital.

The point is that if you engage in pressure testing you will eventually run into a Ben and that is something I would not wish on anyone. That is what makes pressure testing so dangerous and as a training tool it does not prepare you any better for the Bens of the world. So you beat a couple of guys, so what. Next time you’re in a bar and run into Ben and pick a fight with him, if you’re lucky you end up in the hospital.

Training good, pressure testing bad, that is my point.

MMA, TMA, JMA, CMA, whatever you call it and train, all good and can help you a lot in a fight. But I do not think any one is superior to the other. It all comes down to the person that has done the training. There are no bad martial arts; it is the martial artist that trains in that art that makes the difference.

 

[Chris Thompson]

>They empiracly show what works one on one with no weapon>

Has anyone thought of comparing MMA tactics systematically to what actually happens in street assaults? I've seen a fair number of these, and very few of them bore any resemblance to a MMA bout. "Ground and pound" does happen on the street, and bouncers do use submission holds to convince aggressive drunks to cooperate, but otherwise there's very little connection. The typical street assault begins in extreme close distance, from surprise, and involves one man putting the other on the ground immediately and then hurting him from a standing position. The mere fact that both people in a MMA fight know it's a fight beforehand makes such events totally dissimilar to street violence- therefore, they prove nothing about street violence.
But that doesn't mean any other style is all that similar to street violence either.