The purpose of crescent kicks?

dvcochran

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Sir, I will attempt to describe the kicks/names used in MDK and WT/Kukkiwon. As you have mentioned there are variations in about every derivative of TKD.
In the Chang Hon system there is a specific kick called a crescent kick used for blocking.
I think the common denominator here is that we/other styles train the kick as a defensive tool but do not give it a separate, specific name. The mechanics are only slightly different whereas the defensive kick is typically and low to mid level kick, whether delivered from the inside or outside. Opportunity recognition is stressed. Simply meaning 'what targets are available and most opportunistic'.
The
Other kicks in the system called "Vertical Kick" Might be called crescent kick in other systems. There are 2 . "Footsword" (Basically small toe edge of foot) and " Reverse footsword (Large to side of foot) which move from side to side basically impacting the target on somewhat of a horizontal plane, and "Downward Kick" Which can initially move inward or outward horizontally like the vertical kick but travels downward from the peak impacting with the back of the heal, and then a "Pick shape kick" which raises up and the forward and down (Think "Pick Axe" ) impacting with the back of the heel.
"Footsword" is what we describe as the "blade" of the foot. This would b an Outside crescent kick. Starting travel is from inside the body, continuing the motion traveling to the outside of the body.

"Reverse Footsword" is what we describe as the 'ball' or simply inside of the foot. This would be an Inside crescent kick. Starting travel is from outside the body with the motion ending inside the body.

I suspect the "Downward Kick" is the easiest to disseminate, especially with your "Pick Axe" description. We commonly call this just an Axe kick. This kick has the same motion variants; inside, outside, and straight.

Not as common but there are variants for front leg or rear leg for any of the kicks. More of the "any port in a storm" category but good to have the elasticity in the mind when needed.

I Always appreciate conversing with you Sir.
 

Earl Weiss

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I was just going to post this ;)

one did not see axe kicks. In fact, I didn't even know there was such a thing until decades later. Any additional info on this? Perhaps Mr. Weiss?

Perhaps Mr. Weiss?[/QUOTE]
Sir, the Chang Hon "Pick Shape kick" did not exist as such until the 1983 Encyclopedia. Even then just seeing it on a page without Video being readily available we were puzzled. It seemed the same as a "Downward Kick" with the illustration showing the downward kick having an arcing motion at the top and the Pick shape kick having a sharp angle. Later we learned that while the arc of the downward kicks move (somewhat side to side) across the body the Pick shape kick moves up and the forward and then sharply down. By mid to late 1980's we were seeing it in competition.
 

skribs

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Are you saying the striking direction of your inward axe kick is horizontal? The way we teach them is that the direction of striking travel determines the kick (this is also WT terminology).
So inside or outside crescents strike in a mostly horizontal plane.
Inside, outside, or straight on axe kick strike in a vertical plane.

A pretty common thing in how various schools teach slightly different.

I've seen axe kicks that strike on both the vertical and horizontal plane. Just like how front kicks can strike up or out, an axe kick can strike down or out.

I find a lot of similarity between the inward crescent kick and the forward version of the axe kick. I find no similarity with the outward crescent kick. Despite sharing a name with another kick, that one is truly it's own kick. I also find it very niche, because I find hook kick does the same job in most situations.
 

dvcochran

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I've seen axe kicks that strike on both the vertical and horizontal plane. Just like how front kicks can strike up or out, an axe kick can strike down or out.

I find a lot of similarity between the inward crescent kick and the forward version of the axe kick. I find no similarity with the outward crescent kick. Despite sharing a name with another kick, that one is truly it's own kick. I also find it very niche, because I find hook kick does the same job in most situations.
Since the axe kick only strikes with the heel in a vertical motion, this would be the qualifier for me. Else it would be some kind of crescent kick variant.
When teaching the inside (inward) crescent kick we describe a circle drawn on the floor for the foot motion. You actually pull your target Back to you. Part of the 'stepping through' idea. The kick and the body is much closer in on the opponent than an axe kick. And the body ends up with one shoulder presented (closed stance) versus two shoulders (open stance) of an axe kick.
On the outside kick variant, are you saying it hits with the heel? Like something between a crescent kick leg motion and a wheel or hook kick leg motion? If so, honestly I do not know what you call that except possibility really good flexibility that broke form.
I would have to look at the body in motion to identify it. If the foot and shoulders are positioned mostly like a front kick I would call it some kind of crescent kick variation. If the body is rotated over like a side kick I think it would be in the wheel or hook kick category. How the body is positioned is paramount to determine what the follow up will be. Another big reason crescent kicks are thought of as defensive since the upper body is more 'up' and in a defensive posture.

On the front kick description; is that not the difference between a front Snap kick and a Teep or push kick? Variants, but different kick IMHO.
 

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Since the axe kick only strikes with the heel in a vertical motion, this would be the qualifier for me. Else it would be some kind of crescent kick variant.
When teaching the inside (inward) crescent kick we describe a circle drawn on the floor for the foot motion. You actually pull your target Back to you. Part of the 'stepping through' idea. The kick and the body is much closer in on the opponent than an axe kick. And the body ends up with one shoulder presented (closed stance) versus two shoulders (open stance) of an axe kick.
On the outside kick variant, are you saying it hits with the heel? Like something between a crescent kick leg motion and a wheel or hook kick leg motion? If so, honestly I do not know what you call that except possibility really good flexibility that broke form.
I would have to look at the body in motion to identify it. If the foot and shoulders are positioned mostly like a front kick I would call it some kind of crescent kick variation. If the body is rotated over like a side kick I think it would be in the wheel or hook kick category. How the body is positioned is paramount to determine what the follow up will be. Another big reason crescent kicks are thought of as defensive since the upper body is more 'up' and in a defensive posture.

A lot of this may be semantics. Without video, I don't know exactly what you're talking about and am not going to comment further.

Except one thing: an axe kick where the strike is near the top of the arc will be moving more forward than down at the moment of impact. Yes, it's going down, but it's going more forward at that point. The moment of impact is forward, and the follow-through is down. From 90-degrees up to 45-degrees up, it's traveling more forward than down. From 45-up to 45-down it's traveling more down (and then 45 down to landing it's traveling more backward).

On the front kick description; is that not the difference between a front Snap kick and a Teep or push kick? Variants, but different kick IMHO.

There are 3 front kicks in my system I'm developing:
  • Front Snap Kick
  • Front Rising Kick
  • Front Pushing Kick
Front snap kick is with the ball of the foot (or heel) and penetrates forward into the leg, groin, gut, solar plexus, or nose.
Front rising kick is with the instep (or toes, if wearing hard-toed shoes) and penetrates up into the groin or chin. This is also used for the jumping front kick for board breaks.
Front pushing kick is with the heel (or bottom of foot, sometimes ball of the foot) and is designed to arrest momentum or push the opponent away.


At 3:15 he starts talking about striking surfaces. He first talks about my front snap kick version (striking with the ball of the foot), and then talks about the front rising kick. Afterwards, he demonstrates them in reverse order, with the front rising kick first, and then the front snap kick filling the rest of the time.
 

dvcochran

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A lot of this may be semantics. Without video, I don't know exactly what you're talking about and am not going to comment further.

Except one thing: an axe kick where the strike is near the top of the arc will be moving more forward than down at the moment of impact. Yes, it's going down, but it's going more forward at that point. The moment of impact is forward, and the follow-through is down. From 90-degrees up to 45-degrees up, it's traveling more forward than down. From 45-up to 45-down it's traveling more down (and then 45 down to landing it's traveling more backward).



There are 3 front kicks in my system I'm developing:
  • Front Snap Kick
  • Front Rising Kick
  • Front Pushing Kick
Front snap kick is with the ball of the foot (or heel) and penetrates forward into the leg, groin, gut, solar plexus, or nose.
Front rising kick is with the instep (or toes, if wearing hard-toed shoes) and penetrates up into the groin or chin. This is also used for the jumping front kick for board breaks.
Front pushing kick is with the heel (or bottom of foot, sometimes ball of the foot) and is designed to arrest momentum or push the opponent away.


At 3:15 he starts talking about striking surfaces. He first talks about my front snap kick version (striking with the ball of the foot), and then talks about the front rising kick. Afterwards, he demonstrates them in reverse order, with the front rising kick first, and then the front snap kick filling the rest of the time.
I believe we are on the same page for the most part. The mechanics of an axe kick as you describe are anatomical so I do not think they can be argued.

We do not differentiate the front snap and your front rising kick greatly and more talk about the where/when/why of application. SA would trigger much of it (do you have on hard shoes, etc...).
Front pushing kicks has variants but basically the same.
 

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I believe we are on the same page for the most part. The mechanics of an axe kick as you describe are anatomical so I do not think they can be argued.

Semantics can always be argued, especially if we're not on the same page to begin with. To that end, I know several different ways of throwing an axe kick, so there's plenty to argue about there.

We do not differentiate the front snap and your front rising kick greatly and more talk about the where/when/why of application. SA would trigger much of it (do you have on hard shoes, etc...).
Front pushing kicks has variants but basically the same.

I only differentiate because the direction of the thrust is up instead of forward. Like the difference between straight punch and an uppercut. Well, they're more similar than those two punches, but you get the point.
 

Earl Weiss

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"Crescent Kick" Please define. Chang Hon? KKW?
Aren't they defined the same in both?
Based upon the above posts it would seem not. Chang Hon is used for Blocking with the sole of the foot and only moves from the shoulder line toward the center line. (The kick moving from the Center line toward the shoulder line as a block is a "Hooking Kick" not to be confused with the attack "Reverse Hook Kick" in the system) I will let a KKW person provide that definition.
 

andyjeffries

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"Crescent Kick" Please define. Chang Hon? KKW?

Based upon the above posts it would seem not. Chang Hon is used for Blocking with the sole of the foot and only moves from the shoulder line toward the center line. (The kick moving from the Center line toward the shoulder line as a block is a "Hooking Kick" not to be confused with the attack "Reverse Hook Kick" in the system) I will let a KKW person provide that definition.

In Kukkiwon Taekwondo it's used for blocking or striking with the inside edge of the foot and moves towards the centre line (e.g. a right leg moves right to left). It's executed with either a straight knee from start to finish, or chambered like a wide front kick and extends/retracts as it moves inwards.

In WT sport Taekwondo the impact point is commonly the sole of the foot (as that's were the sensors are).

An "outer crescent kick" is the same kick in reverse (so moving from the opposite side of the body to the centre line, e.g right leg moves left to right).
 

dvcochran

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Semantics can always be argued, especially if we're not on the same page to begin with. To that end, I know several different ways of throwing an axe kick, so there's plenty to argue about there.



I only differentiate because the direction of the thrust is up instead of forward. Like the difference between straight punch and an uppercut. Well, they're more similar than those two punches, but you get the point.

Agree. To clarify, we do very much differentiate the snap kicks and the push kicks. Naturally a push kick can be used defensively but I never used it that way in sparring until later in my training. I had always thought of it as an offensive tool. One of those 'Duh!' moments. If I needed to make space I was always turning the leg into a side kick. A Teep completely changed my sparring game.
Since a snap can be delivered low to the groin or even the knee, it has the same mechanics as the high kick for the most part (different knee). The 'how' is covered so the SA to know the where/when/why is more important for us.
 

Earl Weiss

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So I think the only different is contact point and blocking only or blocking/striking, right, GM Weiss?
It would seem Contact point is different and Chang Hon Crescent only goes from shoulder toward center line but there is another difference and as with many things is somewhat exaggerated for patterns and that is similar to an arm block which stops near the impact point so does the crescent kick (and the counterpart the Hooking Kick) and for the kick which is a block after the top you can and sometimes do immediately re chamber for another kick so the non follow thru allows for the quick re chamber and counter.
 

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100% used in sparring, usually from a clinch situation, coming over the shoulder. It takes a lot of practice to stop thinking of them as a distance kick, but to think of them as a super up-close kick, turning your body to the side when kicking (e.g. if you kick inward right legged, you turn to your left 90 degrees to the direction of the kick) and bring your foot all the way through with strength all the way to the floor.
This is a good description. If you jam your opponent, you can bring the crescent kick up and nail them in the head with it and they will never see it coming.
 

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