The Problem with Today's Ninjutsu...

[dunc]

What I know is this: once again, the Japanese government says that no ninjas have existed since the death of Seiko Fujita.

Hi
Can you point me to the source for this
Thanks

 

[Hot Lunch]

Hi
Can you point me to the source for this
Thanks

Any and all sources that speak of the missions he was sent on by the government. Those were the last. Unless you've got more to supercede this.

When Major James Williams dies, there will be no more Buffalo Soldiers left. You can try to do the things that Buffalo Soldier did, but unless the US Army resegregates and established all-black cavalry units, no one will be a Buffalo Soldier after he dies. This works the same way.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ninjas never really die. That's what ninpo means, anyway.

It's a survivalist martial art.

Basic ninja skills: packing sticky rice balls for lunch up the mountain.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Ninjas never really die. That's what ninpo means, anyway.

It's a survivalist martial art.

Basic ninja skills: packing sticky rice balls for lunch up the mountain.

And above all else, it's a profession. If people are hiring them as PI's, that would at least be something. But that would definitely be overkill.

 

[dunc]

Any and all sources that speak of the missions he was sent on by the government. Those were the last. Unless you've got more to supercede this.

When Major James Williams dies, there will be no more Buffalo Soldiers left. You can try to do the things that Buffalo Soldier did, but unless the US Army resegregates and established all-black cavalry units, no one will be a Buffalo Soldier after he dies. This works the same way.

Apologies I meant where is the source for your assertion that the Japanese government states that he was the last ninja

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Defending territory. Sounds like the kind of things militaries do. In any case, however you have to interpret things to maintain your beliefs, you're free to do so. What I know is this: once again, the Japanese government says that no ninjas have existed since the death of Seiko Fujita. Win, lose, or draw; arguing with me isn't going to change the fact that the Japanese government is the bigger beast that you can't slay in this argument.

Nothing you've posted is a convincing argument that the Japanese government would be a definitive source about all shinobi. They may be correct, but it seems possible there may have been a line (or more) of shinobi not affiliated with/tracked by the government.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Any and all sources that speak of the missions he was sent on by the government. Those were the last. Unless you've got more to supercede this.

When Major James Williams dies, there will be no more Buffalo Soldiers left. You can try to do the things that Buffalo Soldier did, but unless the US Army resegregates and established all-black cavalry units, no one will be a Buffalo Soldier after he dies. This works the same way.

dunc was asking for your source, not whether there were sources. It helps folks learn, by looking at the sources others refer to.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Any and all sources that speak of the missions he was sent on by the government. Those were the last. Unless you've got more to supercede this.

When Major James Williams dies, there will be no more Buffalo Soldiers left. You can try to do the things that Buffalo Soldier did, but unless the US Army resegregates and established all-black cavalry units, no one will be a Buffalo Soldier after he dies. This works the same way.

This makes me wonder. Did they actually state he was the last, or is he just the last that they documented missions of? If the second, along with what others have already stated, they could have simply stopped announcing publicly their missions. And/or ignored announcing missions carried out by anyone not working for the government directly (so the ninja equivalent of private contractors essentially).

 

[Hot Lunch]

This makes me wonder. Did they actually state he was the last, or is he just the last that they documented missions of? If the second, along with what others have already stated, they could have simply stopped announcing publicly their missions. And/or ignored announcing missions carried out by anyone not working for the government directly (so the ninja equivalent of private contractors essentially).

Relying on doubt to maintain hope? I'm sure that psychologists have a word for this.

 

[Oily Dragon]

And above all else, it's a profession. If people are hiring them as PI's, that would at least be something. But that would definitely be overkill.

Right. Any real ninja would be expected to put forth a show of skill before hiring. And the last time I saw a ninja doing anything interesting on camera was in the early 80s.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Relying on doubt to maintain hope? I'm sure that psychologists have a word for this.

What am I maintaining hope for? This is the first I've heard of any of this, and I don't particularly care if ninjas still exist. I've got 0 dogs in this fight. Honestly my assumption before this thread was that ninjas stopped existing basically after the meiji era.

I actually thought from the posts that what you were writing made sense - if the government outright stated that there were no more active ninjas after world war 2, I'd believe that barring a specific reason not to.

But if they just stopped reporting on ninja activity after world war 2, and made no indication that there were/weren't other ninjas, nor refuted the claims of others who claimed to be ninjas, it sounds more like they just stopped making it public. Which would also make a lot of sense given the outcome of world war 2, the role of ninjas in general, and the limitations placed on them. There's no longer a reason for them to publicize it.

So if you can provide a source, as already asked by someone else, of the japanese government definitively claiming he is the last ninja, I'd believe it. But it sounds like there either isn't a source stating that, or you don't know of it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This makes me wonder. Did they actually state he was the last, or is he just the last that they documented missions of? If the second, along with what others have already stated, they could have simply stopped announcing publicly their missions. And/or ignored announcing missions carried out by anyone not working for the government directly (so the ninja equivalent of private contractors essentially).

I think he's just riffing on a fact I posted, that according to Japanese historians, none of the current martial arts schools claiming to teach ninjutsu arts really have strong claims that stand up to historical scrutiny.

And the few ninja known to have lived in the last 100 years is probably near zero. And that implies 99% of those claiming to be ninjas since I was born in the early 70s are real goofballs.

But still, the whole idea of Shinobi no mono is ancient and deep. In fact it existed in the Chinese language before Japan was a country. In Canton, for example it would have been Jan Ze, and there is a long history of such people. Glamorized in pulp books like Secrets of the Vagabonds, during the ninja craze of the late 20th.

 

[Steve]

I wonder why no one has concocted an Indian martial art similar to ninjutsu around the Thuggees. Basically the same stuff. And we know it doesn’t have to be historically accurate to be financially viable.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I wonder why no one has concocted an Indian martial art similar to ninjutsu around the Thuggees. Basically the same stuff. And we know it doesn’t have to be historically accurate to be financially viable.

As far as I know the Thuggee history, they weren't warrior types. They were generally con men who strangled their marks. I don't think they were know for appearing well armed, since they preferred to play confidence games until the moment was right to suffocate and rob their hosts. And since they were hunted down and banned in India in the 19th century, the only resurgence was in Temple of Doom.

But you know, Thuggee culture influenced a lot of things, other than the word thug and popularizing Kali Ma and the Shiva lingam and legends in Indian Jones 2.

The captain of a Thuggee group was called a Jemadar, which is how Star Trek came up with the Jem'Hadar. Fun fact I just happened to know.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So if you can provide a source, as already asked by someone else, of the japanese government definitively claiming he is the last ninja, I'd believe it. But it sounds like there either isn't a source stating that, or you don't know of it.

What they're asking for is something that emphatically states "the Japanese govermnent states that he's the last ninja," and not "he was the last ninja employed by the Japanese government." In reality, they're the same statement. But logic is that if the sources only state the latter, then ninjas must still exist.

Hence, why I brought up Buffalo Soldiers. I've got a better example than that: musketeers.

The last war where muskets were used in Europe was the Crimean War. In the US, the Civil War. Those were your last musketeers, and infantry units eventually converted them to riflemen.

Is it possible to get trained on using a musket today? Yes. People do it all the time. But are they musketeers? No. Because, by definition, a musketeer is a profession. Specifically, a soldier (i.e., an enlisted member or commissioned officer of a nation's army) who wields a musket in battle. If someone claimed to be a musketeer today, what would they be doing with their lives? Passing time until the military needs their services (which is likely doing to be never)?

Same thing with ninjas. If ninjas still existed, what would they be doing right now if the Japanese government isn't employing them? Being Peeping Toms and snapping nude photos through people's windows while hiding in their backyards?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What they're asking for is something that emphatically states "the Japanese govermnent states that he's the last ninja," and not "he was the last ninja employed by the Japanese government." In reality, they're the same statement. But logic is that if the sources only state the latter, then ninjas must still exist.

Do you have a source that he was the last ninja employed by the japanese government?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you have a source that he was the last ninja employed by the japanese government?

Yes

Amazon.com

And Jesse Enkamp has also spoken of this.

You previously mentioned that ninjas basically stopped being a thing after the Meiji Restoration. Think about the possible reasons for this. During Sengoku, if a ninja assassinated someone from an enemy province, think about what the consequences were for the entity that sent the ninja. Then, think about what the consequences would be if they were sent to China for that purpose. Consequences are much bigger, correct?

Now, imagine what they would be after the Meiji Restoration where Japan was now acting on an international scale. Let's say they send one to Europe to assassinate a high ranking noblemen. What would be the consquences for Japan for doing this? Let's say today: Japan sends one to North Korea to take out Kim Jong-un. Is Japan ready for full-scale war with not only North Korea, but also two other nuclear armed countries (Russia and China) that would undoubtedly rain down the wrath of god upon them? They have no use today.

 

[Steve]

As far as I know the Thuggee history, they weren't warrior types. They were generally con men who strangled their marks.

Were ninja warrior types? Does that matter? Modern Thuggee martial artists can basically be whatever we want them to be.

I don't think they were know for appearing well armed, since they preferred to play confidence games until the moment was right to suffocate and rob their hosts. And since they were hunted down and banned in India in the 19th century, the only resurgence was in Temple of Doom.

But you know, Thuggee culture influenced a lot of things, other than the word thug and popularizing Kali Ma and the Shiva lingam and legends in Indian Jones 2.

The captain of a Thuggee group was called a Jemadar, which is how Star Trek came up with the Jem'Hadar. Fun fact I just happened to know.

All of that makes it ideal for a budding, entrepreneurial grandmaster.

Of course, I'm being facetious. The larger point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, the only real issues with ninjutsu occur when the customer doesn't get what they believe they are paying for. I would bet that most people who train in ninjutsu are primarily interested in the myth and apocryphal trappings of ninja. Historical accuracy is, at most, a way to reverse engineer a little bit of legitimacy into it. Just enough to make it cool.

Some people want to train in a style that is historically accurate. Some people think they want that, but really what they're looking for is something that FEELS historically accurate (but really isn't).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Were ninja warrior types? Does that matter? Modern Thuggee martial artists can basically be whatever we want them to be.


All of that makes it ideal for a budding, entrepreneurial grandmaster.

Of course, I'm being facetious. The larger point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, the only real issues with ninjutsu occur when the customer doesn't get what they believe they are paying for. I would bet that most people who train in ninjutsu are primarily interested in the myth and apocryphal trappings of ninja. Historical accuracy is, at most, a way to reverse engineer a little bit of legitimacy into it. Just enough to make it cool.

Some people want to train in a style that is historically accurate. Some people think they want that, but really what they're looking for is something that FEELS historically accurate (but really isn't).

For the record, I'd totally be up for training naruto-style ninjutsu, if that was offered and did what they do in the show. Even if it wasn't accurate.

Which is what I'm thinking every time I see the word ninja (that and people in black using a straw to breathe underwater), and am trying realllyyyy hard to stay objective reading through everything.

 

[Steve]

For the record, I'd totally be up for training naruto-style ninjutsu, if that was offered and did what they do in the show. Even if it wasn't accurate.

Which is what I'm thinking every time I see the word ninja (that and people in black using a straw to breathe underwater), and am trying realllyyyy hard to stay objective reading through everything.

You and me both! I watched The Master as a kid and was totally on board. The early/mid-80s was all about ninja. I couldn't find a ninja school, so I joined Wing Chun instead for a few years, and then joined the wrestling team that I liked a lot more. But if there were a ninjutsu school nearby, I totally would have joined up.

Not so much the magic stuff for me. But definitely the dressing up in black kit, hiding in shadows, picking locks, vulcan nerve pinching people and stuff like that. Oh, and the tumbling and sword work.