The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Hanzou]

That's true. But that's the reality that we all train for right? Bigger size = more functional muscle strength. Better skilled = You do style A better than your opponent does style A.

If you want to see to see someone of equal size and strength use it, then there is a clip of one of his students (I think it was his student) who is in a BJJ match that uses a wrist lock to take his opponent now. He actually points that out because he knew that there would be people like you who would say that he's only able to do the techniques because of his size. The video of his student in competition illustrates that people of the same size and relative strength can be successful with the technique.

Yeah, but I have the same issue with that that I have with folks like Roy Dean; There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall. Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks. Also Dean's students aren't exactly lighting the competitive world on fire with that influx of Aikido techniques. The same can be said for Wolfman's student who happened to win a match using an unorthodox technique.

Nothing in the above examples matches what you saw out of Bravo and Renzo's schools in the earlier part of the decade with the leg locking phase that lit the competitive BJJ world on fire and completely revolutionized the art. Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.

 

[punisher73]

What is so hard to understand? Aikido rests on the assumption that you have to comply to the wrist locks or else you get hurt, hence there is no real live resistance, hence you can never master anything because it's all choreographed in advance.

To that I asked: what makes someone a technical master of an art that is all choreographed?

That's just it...YOU AREN'T GETTING IT!!! I don't know how much more plainly, I or anyone else, can make it. There is NO assumption that you have to comply with the wrist locks or else you get hurt. You have NO UNDERSTANDING of what drilling is in ANY martial art. Take ANY martial art and you will work on certain skills and certain drills where BOTH parties agree to certain things. Training is a two way street and you seem to have no grasp of that. Each person should be learning a skill whether attacker/defender. So, in the case of Aikido, in DRILLING one person will execute the lock and IF APPLIED CORRECTLY you practice rolling or a breakfall, this way both parties can practice valuable skills.

When I trained Aikido, the instructor ALWAYS made sure that everything was in place and no one was just giving them the lock and flopping to the ground. Going to the ground was the RESULT of a properly executed lock or throw. How can you not grasp this? You can't make blanket statements of all/none in martial arts. Just because your experience is different than people who have other experiences it doesn't mean they are wrong. I think we can all agree though that when it comes to Aikido, there are many people and many schools that don't focus on Aikido for it's martial capabilities, but look to it for the self improvement and spiritual aspects. That doesn't mean that the martial aspects aren't there or that no one trains them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.

I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described? How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques? Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga. If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.

Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition. So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.

If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that. Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.

 

[Hanzou]

I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described? How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques? Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga. If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.

Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition. So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.

If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that. Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.

I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts.

That would be MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall.

This was never my argument nor my expectation. I don't think I've ever had the perspective that what someone does makes something more effective. To me it either works or it doesn't. Efficiency, effectiveness, consistency is all going to change from fighter to fighter and opponent to opponent.

Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks

That's because like punches some joint lock techniques are universal across multiple systems. No one system can lay claim that it's only BJJ, japanese, chinese..etc. This is why I enjoy talking to people from other systems. They may have a different approach to the same technique I know or to a similar technique.

Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.

My thoughts on this is that I don't do Aikido so I'm the last person who wants to say what Aikido needs to do. What I do know that's representing a systems functionality is going to be the responsibility of those who practice and train Aikido. Anyone out side of that is just going to get bits and pieces. "this piece works" vs "this system works". That will be up to those guys. The most I can do is pick out. "this piece works"

 

[Alan Smithee]

So if they aren't effective at stopping them in training and competition formats, why would they be able to stop them on "da streetz"?

Because they are not allowed to slam in BJJ events and because a slam puts an end to it on the streetz but not on a mat, and because they want to learn submissions.

 

[Hanzou]

Because they are not allowed to slam in BJJ events and because a slam puts an end to it on the streetz but not on a mat, and because they want to learn submissions.

You're allowed to slam in MMA. Why isn't BJJ completely made obsolete in MMA due to wrestling?

 

[Hanzou]

My thoughts on this is that I don't do Aikido so I'm the last person who wants to say what Aikido needs to do. What I do know that's representing a systems functionality is going to be the responsibility of those who practice and train Aikido. Anyone out side of that is just going to get bits and pieces. "this piece works" vs "this system works". That will be up to those guys. The most I can do is pick out. "this piece works"

Well yeah, but they're piggy backing off of BJJ. I think if Aikidoka want their art to be viewed as more effective, it needs its advocates to let it stand on it's own merit.

 

[Alan Smithee]

You're allowed to slam in MMA.

MMA is not fought on a concrete surface. You agreed that pulling guard is inadvisable on the streets, so why are you arguing? Anybody in MMA today crosstrain wrestling so there is no hole.

 

[Hanzou]

MMA is not fought on a concrete surface. You agreed that pulling guard is inadvisable on the streets, so why are you arguing? Anybody in MMA today crosstrain wrestling so there is no hole.

Yeah, and MMA isn't fought on a soft mattress either. I've had friends of mine badly injured from getting slammed in the ring. One friend of mine got his collarbone broken and shoulder dislocated from a single slam. Even on mats you can get badly injured from throws and slams.

Fighting on the streets is inadvisable period.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yeah, and MMA isn't fought on a soft mattress either. I've had friends of mine badly injured from getting slammed in the ring. One friend of mine got his collarbone broken and shoulder dislocated from a single slam. Even on mats you can get badly injured from throws and slams.

Fighting on the streets is inadvisable period.

And like I said, everybody crosstrains and wrestling based are absolutely dominating the sport.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts.

That would be MMA.

For me, my standard is much lower. If I can beat up my attacker using the technique then it's effective. If I can spar and pull my techniques off against 90% of the people I go againt of various skill level including those who are more skilled than me then I'm happy with the effectiveness.

If I can fight and win against 90% of the people that I go against of various skill levels and systems, then I'm happy with the effectiveness. If my fight performance does not match or exceed my sparring percentage then I will question my effectiveness and will go back to see see what I'm doing wrong. I've been in more real fights than professional MMA fights. So that's where my standard lies. What works for me in my life, can it get me out of a jam.

Also MMA doesn't use weapons so right there it would instantly fail an effectiveness standard that I think Jow Ga should have. I'm not saying this to be funny. I want to be functional using Jow Ga staff, so I'm more likely to Join HEMA to test that out instead of using MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

And like I said, everybody crosstrains and wrestling based are absolutely dominating the sport.

Uh, all grappling is "wrestling based". That includes BJJ and Judo.

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Uh, all grappling is "wrestling based". That includes BJJ and Judo.

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

Don't be silly. You know what I mean. Collegiate and Olympic wrestlers are the majority of champions in the UFC.

 

[Martial D]

I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described? How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques? Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga. If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.

Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition. So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.

If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that. Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.

Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.

There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.

Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.

In the words of Joe Rogan;

The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.

 

[Hanzou]

Don't be silly. You know what I mean. Collegiate and Olympic wrestlers are the majority of champions in the UFC.

Yeah, no they aren't.

That said, the number of UFC champions with wrestling backgrounds wasn't really the point.

 

[jobo]

Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.

There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.

Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.

In the words of Joe Rogan;

The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.

but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.

back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.

I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes

 

[punisher73]

Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.

There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.

Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.

In the words of Joe Rogan;

The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.

Not to derail this, but it is along the same lines. A kote-gaehsi or turning wrist lock is the same no matter how many arts its found in. Yes, kung fu (Jow Gar) has techniques not found in Muay Thai or other combat sports. But, you see their individual techniques being used all the time in MMA. For example, here is Chuck Liddell teaching his famous "Overhand Right" punch. Look at how he trains and drills it, it is the same punch in Jow Gar (and other kung fu styles) known as a Sau Choi.

"MMA" isn't the UFC. MMA in other countries have different base arts. People often forget that Mixed Martial Arts are just a mix of miscellaneous techniques from LOTS of different martial arts that work best in that given rule set and environment, and it not a set style. It is NOT the end all and be all for empty hand to hand. If you looked at Pride, it had a different rule set and environment and fighters used different things that you don't see in the UFC. If you changed the UFC rules and octagon, you would start seeing other things. Also, depending on the fighter you see certain techniques that other fighters don't use. If you just watched Nick Diaz, you would think that the best is boxing and bjj. If you just watched Randy Couture you would think that the best thing is clinch boxing and wrestling. If you just watched Jon Jones you would get another picture of what works. Each of those fighters had a base that worked for them and they built on it. They didn't all use the same thing. The one thing that ALL of them have in common though is that ALL of their techniques come from the traditional martial arts.

 

[Alan Smithee]

When I trained Aikido, the instructor ALWAYS made sure that everything was in place and no one was just giving them the lock and flopping to the ground. Going to the ground was the RESULT of a properly executed lock or throw.

You instructor told you that when you do it "like this" and your partner gets the signal that you "done it like this", he or she does a corresponding fall technique. This is assuming the technique works in the first place.

It hasn't been challenged that doing it "like this" actually works. It is assumed.

 

[Martial D]

but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.

back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.

I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes

If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.

Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.