Most bad techniques are bad because you're bad at them

[Martial D]

Show where he ever once said their inability to do the technique/using a different grip proves it works. He didn't. I'm pretty sure you know he didn't, but are creating a strawman because you REALLY want to be right in this argument you've chosen, rather than actually contributing to a discussion.

I dunno man. His argument basically breaks down to 'no evidence=no reason to take it too seriously' which is pretty hard to reasonably argue against.

Yet argue you guys do.

It reminds me of my perfectly normal buddy that insists his disabled little brother with downs isn't actually disabled, even though he can't be left unsupervised for more than 20 minutes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dunno man. His argument basically breaks down to 'no evidence=no reason to take it too seriously' which is pretty hard to reasonably argue against.

Yet argue you guys do.

It reminds me of my perfectly normal buddy that insists his disabled little brother with downs isn't actually disabled, even though he can't be left unsupervised for more than 20 minutes.

I actually haven't argued against that point. I like wrist locks for what they are. I don't think they're as available as some training drills suggest. I mostly like them for the mechanics they require and the set-ups that make them usable. Those set-ups and mechanics are useful without the locks.

I've only argued that they do, in fact, work sometimes, not that they are highly useful. (Of course, work "for what" is a question that hasn't come up, so I suspect DB and I are not even talking about the same "what".)

 

[Martial D]

I actually haven't argued against that point. I like wrist locks for what they are. I don't think they're as available as some training drills suggest. I mostly like them for the mechanics they require and the set-ups that make them usable. Those set-ups and mechanics are useful without the locks.

I've only argued that they do, in fact, work sometimes, not that they are highly useful. (Of course, work "for what" is a question that hasn't come up, so I suspect DB and I are not even talking about the same "what".)

Are we not talking about the same 'what' as always? Ie; matched up against another resisting human being.

 

[skribs]

I dunno man. His argument basically breaks down to 'no evidence=no reason to take it too seriously' which is pretty hard to reasonably argue against.

Yet argue you guys do.

It reminds me of my perfectly normal buddy that insists his disabled little brother with downs isn't actually disabled, even though he can't be left unsupervised for more than 20 minutes.

The problem is, when he's given evidence, he doesn't take the evidence seriously either. He's got a lot of excuses for why evidence doesn't count.

 

[Martial D]

The problem is, when he's given evidence, he doesn't take the evidence seriously either. He's got a lot of excuses for why evidence doesn't count.

To be fair, I've read this thread and I've not seen anything I'd qualify as evidence wrist locks are reliably effective against resistance.

The thing is, for BJJ/MMA guys this will always be a really hard sell, as hundreds of thousands of BJJ/MMA matches have taken place, involving people from every MA background imaginable, and they just never happen, despite being perfectly legal.

Is EVERYONE just doing them wrong?

 

[skribs]

Naw. in spite of the technical shortcomings in Ramseys demos, I personally find his "evidence" convincing here.

The case we're particularly talking about it is not convincing at all. He's literally doing the exact opposite of the technique.

Besides, I really enjoy Ramsey's stuff. For one thing, he's really funny. And yeah, he's not alway's careful to get the techniques precisely right, but that's not really his point. His point is that these techniques are often conceptually flawed since they do not presume a realistically violent and motivated attack by an attacker who will give full resistance.

He's an arrogant jerk. He's not funny at all. He also does not seem to have any concept of what the real life dangers are for women.

In my style we teach various techniques to deal with wrist grabs, and I openly admit against heavy, unchoreographed resistance by a really strong and commited attacker, they aren't the best choice. In fact some are impractical as all heck. If your life depends on it, a much better choice is to immediately punch your attacker straight in the face ...not unlike what Ramsey's assisistant shows at one point.

And I've found that with the proper training, they are. I'm 5'6, and most of my weight is carried around the middle. We have a guy at our gym who is well over 6' and his arms are so big I can't even wrap my fingers around his wrists. When I do the techniques correctly, I am able to at least escape and take control. And yes, we do active resistance drills.

Regardless, whether or not a "wrist grab" is effective, you don't get to choose where someone will grab you. If someone grabs you by the wrist, you can't say "I don't know any moves that are effective here. Can you grab me around the waist instead. I learned a good defense against that."

That punch worked because Ramsey didn't block it. It didn't actually break the grip, it just surprised him. It's also going to depend on the strength of the defender - if a 5'4" petite girl is punching a 6'2" muscle-bound guy, it probably won't be that effective. But most of the wrist escapes I've learned would work just as well in that situation.

 

[skribs]

To be fair, I've read this thread and I've not seen anything I'd qualify as evidence wrist locks are reliably effective against resistance.

The thing is, for BJJ/MMA guys this will always be a really hard sell, as hundreds of thousands of BJJ/MMA matches have taken place, involving people from every MA background imaginable, and they just never happen, despite being perfectly legal.

Is EVERYONE just doing them wrong?

Police arrests. Because apparently criminals don't resist arrest.

In another recent thread, the subject was eye pokes. I posted a video of people being poked in the eye and being incapacitated for several seconds. He was in complete denial that someone with their back turned, unable to see, and not paying attention was unable to fight.

 

[Martial D]

Police arrests. Because apparently criminals don't resist arrest.

In another recent thread, the subject was eye pokes. I posted a video of people being poked in the eye and being incapacitated for several seconds. He was in complete denial that someone with their back turned, unable to see, and not paying attention was unable to fight.

Some resist, some don't. Most get the same level of force used on them regardless. Generally any real resistance with cops and they bring out the tazer, or guns..and usually when suspects(not always 'criminals') are detained there is more than one cop doing it.

To me that's pretty shaky 'evidence'. Your milage may vary.

You didn't answer my question tho. Why do you suppose they seldom to never work in competition? Is it just that literally nobody is doing it right, or is it something else?

 

[skribs]

Some resist, some don't. Most get the same level of force used on them regardless. Generally any real resistance with cops and they bring out the tazer, or guns..and usually when suspects(not always 'criminals') are detained there is more than one cop doing it.

To me that's pretty shaky 'evidence'. Your milage may vary.

You didn't answer my question tho. Why do you suppose they seldom to never work in competition? Is it just that literally nobody is doing it right, or is it something else?

1. Wrists are generally wrapped up, which adds to the difficulty.
2. Wrist grabs are harder to train than other grappling types. I've been training Hapkido for over 4 years, and because this is an elective class on top of our Taekwondo curriculum, we focus almost exclusively on wrist grabs and grappling, and eschew the strikes from the curriculum (since we have Taekwondo for that). I am barely comfortable with using wrist locks, even with 4 years of dedicated training in them. They aren't something I would expect people to learn in a women's self defense seminar, or a 30-minute sidebar in an MMA class.
3. My Dad (who is also in my Hapkido class) is friends with the father of one of the former UFC title holders. He asked this fighter why Hapkido isn't used in UFC, and the answer was "because most of the moves are illegal."
4. I don't think the situation comes up often in the UFC where a wrist grab technique is applicable. Most of our wristlocks are counters to a wrist grab. That's something that can achieve many goals in a real-world situation (i.e. a creep trying to keep a girl from leaving somewhere, someone holding you in place while their friend punches you), but is not very common in the ring.

We had a guy in our Hapkido school for a few months, who was also training BJJ and would go to grappling competitions. He said that while he still used BJJ as a base, his training from Hapkido helped him stop most of what the others were trying to do and he was able to take gold in both Gi and No-Gi competitions. He didn't use the wrist locks themselves, but he was able to apply the concepts he learned to basically shut down the other grapplers.

 

[Martial D]

1. Wrists are generally wrapped up, which adds to the difficulty.
2. Wrist grabs are harder to train than other grappling types. I've been training Hapkido for over 4 years, and because this is an elective class on top of our Taekwondo curriculum, we focus almost exclusively on wrist grabs and grappling, and eschew the strikes from the curriculum (since we have Taekwondo for that). I am barely comfortable with using wrist locks, even with 4 years of dedicated training in them. They aren't something I would expect people to learn in a women's self defense seminar, or a 30-minute sidebar in an MMA class.
3. My Dad (who is also in my Hapkido class) is friends with the father of one of the former UFC title holders. He asked this fighter why Hapkido isn't used in UFC, and the answer was "because most of the moves are illegal."
4. I don't think the situation comes up often in the UFC where a wrist grab technique is applicable. Most of our wristlocks are counters to a wrist grab. That's something that can achieve many goals in a real-world situation (i.e. a creep trying to keep a girl from leaving somewhere, someone holding you in place while their friend punches you), but is not very common in the ring.

We had a guy in our Hapkido school for a few months, who was also training BJJ and would go to grappling competitions. He said that while he still used BJJ as a base, his training from Hapkido helped him stop most of what the others were trying to do and he was able to take gold in both Gi and No-Gi competitions. He didn't use the wrist locks themselves, but he was able to apply the concepts he learned to basically shut down the other grapplers.

Ok, I'm not going to argue with your experience. I'll hold out for some evidence. I've never trained with a good hapkido guy, but we have an aikido shodan at our club. He never gets wristlocks. I've never had a wristlock work on me, or made one work, or seen anyone else do it either(aside from ' here give me your limp arm so I can show you something').and I spar/roll almost every day with a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds.

As far as wrist grabs go..single and double, over and underhand grips, we do lots of drills and escapes from there. I've never been able to get or get got in a wristlock from there before.i know this is just anecdotal but it's a large volume of it right?

At your school, do you spar/roll with full resistance, and if so, do you get wristlock submissions? I'm sure you can understand the skepticism here, background and experience considered.

 

[skribs]

Ok, I'm not going to argue with your experience. I'll hold out for some evidence. I've never trained with a good hapkido guy, but we have an aikido shodan at our club. He never gets wristlocks. I've never had a wristlock work on me, or made one work, or seen anyone else do it either(aside from ' here give me your limp arm so I can show you something').and I spar/roll almost every day with a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds.

As far as wrist grabs go..single and double, over and underhand grips, we do lots of drills and escapes from there. I've never been able to get or get got in a wristlock from there before.i know this is just anecdotal but it's a large volume of it right?

At your school, do you spar/roll with full resistance, and if so, do you get wristlock submissions? I'm sure you can understand the skepticism here, background and experience considered.

I'll give you a bit of layered answer.

Sparring in Hapkido is a little bit different than sparring in most other martial arts. Where most martial arts have sparring as an equal thing (i.e. you and I square off, and then we fight until one of us wins), Hapkido sparring is more of a role play, where one person is the bad guy and the other defends. One thing I might be able to equate it to is the Referee Position in wrestling. (For those without experience in wrestling, this isn't the Referee, but rather the position the wrestlers are in after a stoppage on the ground, where one person is on all fours and the other person is kneeling over them).

Typically, we use Active Resistance. Which means as soon as the defender starts defending, the attacker tries to prevent him from doing whatever it is he is doing. If I fail to secure my grip, I fail. If I put myself in a compromised position, I get countered.

In this scenario, I am usually able to make the grabs work if I do them correctly. My Master is constantly giving me advice and corrections, such as:

• If you go there, you're open to him choking you
• If you don't do this, he can punch you with his free hand
• It didn't work because your footwork was wrong, do it again
• Your transition was wrong, let me show you (he then has me grab him and shows me how much pain he can inflict on the human body)

In symmetrical sparring, I have not been able to make them work. This is because we both end up countering the wrist grabs with wrist escapes, and the end result looks either like a Wing Chun Sticky Hands drill or else a children's game. It typically goes something like this:

1. I grab my opponen'ts left wrist with my right hand (what we call a straight-arm grab)
2. My opponent uses a circular motion to reverse the grab
3. I use a circular motion to reverse his grab
4. He uses a circular motion to reverse my grab
5. Repeat ad naseum

This is, in my opinion, the difference between "self defense" and "fighting". In a fight, whether sanctioned or a street fight, both fighters have relatively similar goals and starting points. In self defense, one person has the goal of committing a violent act on someone else, and the other person wants to survive.

My Dad told me about a guy he knew in High School, who was an amazing tennis player. He didn't hit that fast, but he could return anything. So he won all of his matches by attrition, he'd just keep up the defense until the other person made a mistake, at which point he would get the point. This guy had a match once against someone similar - not a hard hitter, not a trick shotter, but could simply return anything. That was a loooooonnnnngggggg match.

I think this was a part of our problem, that we were both using a defensive strategy is why we went nowhere. There's also the simple fact that we were all beginner belts at the time of this story. This was not the sparring style our Master (7th dan) suggested, but rather the one our fresh 1st-Dan black belt suggested. So it was not a sparring style we had trained for, and we were white and orange belts. With more experience, we could probably do better.

Submissions - we kind of do wrist lock submissions. Most of our submissions are enhanced by the wristlock, but not necessarily accomplished solely by the lock. The gooseneck really stretches out the nerves in the arm, and that is what generally gets it. Typically, our submissions will attack the elbow or shoulder. Our grip on the wrist is mainly to line the elbow up correctly and secure the arm.

Our submissions generally use a combination of our hand on the wrist, and our knee to the elbow. There are a lot of different ones we use, depending on how we've grabbed your wrist and whether you're on your back or your stomach.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To be fair, I've read this thread and I've not seen anything I'd qualify as evidence wrist locks are reliably effective against resistance.

The thing is, for BJJ/MMA guys this will always be a really hard sell, as hundreds of thousands of BJJ/MMA matches have taken place, involving people from every MA background imaginable, and they just never happen, despite being perfectly legal.

Is EVERYONE just doing them wrong?

First we need to distinguish between wristlocks standing and on the ground. On the ground, they can absolutely be a legitimate technique, if not a primary one. I've finished plenty of people with wristlocks on the ground.

Standing is another matter. They generally aren't even worth trying in the context of an MMA fight, with fists flying. However there is one standing wrist lock that sometimes works in grappling competition, even at high levels.

It's not a bread and butter technique, more of a surprise move. Here's an example of it working in competition:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My Dad (who is also in my Hapkido class) is friends with the father of one of the former UFC title holders. He asked this fighter why Hapkido isn't used in UFC, and the answer was "because most of the moves are illegal."

This is not correct. The overwhelming majority of Hapkido techniques are perfectly legal in MMA. There are some exceptions, but I'd guess 95-99% of what you learn in Hapkido would be legal in MMA competition.

 

[Martial D]

This is not correct. The overwhelming majority of Hapkido techniques are perfectly legal in MMA. There are some exceptions, but I'd guess 95-99% of what you learn in Hapkido would be legal in MMA competition.

Unless there are a lot of finger grabs eye pokes and nut shots, because basically everything else is fair game.

 

[skribs]

Unless there are a lot of finger grabs eye pokes and nut shots, because basically everything else is fair game.

Define finger grab. How granular before it goes from a handgrab/wristgrab to a finger grab and becomes illegal?

1. I grab your hand, in such a way that I'm pinching the bones in the hand together, and I might have a good grip around your pinky or thumb?
2. I grab your fingers, with my hand wrapped around 3 or 4 of your fingers and squeeze them together?
3. I grab one of your fingers, or else I grab your fingers in pairs and stretch your hand in ways it shouldn't?

 

[wab25]

This thread has been interesting... The biggest argument seems to be "what is the correct data set to use" when determining whether wrist locks work.

But, what am I to take from reading 7 pages of this? In my art, we do study wrist locks. Should I accept one data set and dismiss them? Or should I take the other data set and just practice harder? Or should I redefine "works?" Here is my take away from this thread.

You need to define for yourself, what you mean when you say "I have learned this wrist lock and can use it." Does this mean that you watched it on youtube? Does this mean you were shown for a few minutes? Does this mean you have applied it successfully against willing partners? Have you applied it against semi compliant partners? Have you applied it against full resistance? Have you applied it against full resistance against people not from your school, possibly with a different rule set? Have you used it in competition? Have you used it in a real situation on the street?

In reality, you will have different answers for each technique. If you have only ever applied them in the school, in prearranged set ups... its important to know that, before relying on that technique for something more important.

There are some wrist locks that when I say "I have learned this wrist lock," I mean I have used it in my school, in the prearranged drills, I have used it in sparring inside my school, outside my school, outside my style and with people of many different styles, under different rule sets, with full resistance. And when I say "used" I mean they "worked" by either getting the person to tap or go to the ground. There is a greater number of wrist locks, that when I say "I have learned this wrist lock," it means I can do the demos, and apply the lock in the prearranged drill, that my school uses, and that is all. It is important that I know which is which.

I take time to train with other people, in other styles, with other rules and different ways of doing randori. Once I have built a good training relationship with other folks, I will try to put in my wrist locks to see what happens. (its important to develop a good relationship, so that the people you train with understand that you are testing yourself and your training, not trying to take cheap shots or make anyone look bad... except maybe yourself) I have had way more wrist locks fail, than succeed. But, instead of getting frustrated, I go back to the drawing board, and try to figure out what I am doing wrong. For some locks, I have figured out pretty decent ways to set them up and apply them. Others, I am still working on. Still others.... well lets say I still get countered a lot.

Here is the real kicker though. You can read what I said about trying out wrist locks and conclude that wrist locks suck and I shouldn't waste time trying to learn them. But the point still stands. You should be able to take out every instance where I said "wrist lock" and put in "straight right," "double leg take down," "rear naked choke" and "round house kick to the head." Whatever it is that you train, you need to try multiple forms of resistance, against multiple people, from different schools, different rules. So that when you say "I have learned to do X," you understand when and where you were able to be successful with that technique and how much more you need to test that technique. Your "go to bag of techniques" should be the one's you know that you have tested the most.

Every technique is going to start with the "I saw it on youtube" or "I was shown it in class once." They all then move through the various drill, repetition, scenario set up and randori type situations in your school. Then it is on the student to get out of the house and try those in different places, with different people, with more and more resistance. (yes, you may need to go outside your school to do this. Your instructor may not help you with this... but its your training, not his.) If you don't get out and pressure test what you learn... that is also valuable information for you to know and for those who you may teach this stuff to, to know.

 

[skribs]

For some locks, I have figured out pretty decent ways to set them up and apply them. Others, I am still working on. Still others.... well lets say I still get countered a lot.

In some cases, it's a continued training thing.

In some cases, the technique itself as you learned it may not be particularly useful, but the things you learned from that technique can be applied. For example, there are some wrist locks that I don't have quite down yet, but learning how manipulating the wrist affects the shoulders and balance has been a godsend for other take-downs.

In some cases, the technique you're learning is more of a niche or situational technique, but when it comes up it's very useful. An example here would be ankle locks. They're not something you generally seek to employ, but if someone is going to kick you or give you their leg, why not take advantage of it?

In some cases, the technique will fail, but you can apply the mirror technique and succeed. If you had started with the mirror technique and that failed, you can apply the original technique and succeed. It's the same concept as that Bill Wallace video, where he does a roundhouse kick to the body until his opponent can block it, then a roundhouse to the head until that's blocked, goes back and forth until the opponent figures out how to block both, and then throws in a hook kick. If I go for an inside lock and it's resisted, that outward resistance makes it easy to apply an outward lock.

And in some cases, the technique is simply bad and you should try something else. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen. I'm arguing that in most cases, when you can't make a technique work, it's because of the above cases:

1. Need more training
2. Need to understand the concept
3. Need to use it in the right context
4. Need to use the right set-up

 

[wab25]

And in some cases, the technique is simply bad and you should try something else. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen. I'm arguing that in most cases, when you can't make a technique work, it's because of the above cases:

1. Need more training
2. Need to understand the concept
3. Need to use it in the right context
4. Need to use the right set-up

I would add cases:
5. Need to use it against more and more resistance.
6. Need to use it against more people who do not "know when to fall down."

 

[skribs]

I would add cases:
5. Need to use it against more and more resistance.
6. Need to use it against more people who do not "know when to fall down."

One of my favorite things is the intermediate students in our Taekwondo program, who do what I've come to call "Active Compliance." Or the advanced students who are helping demonstrate a technique. I'm trying to explain how to secure the grab and the kid is already flipping over.

I have to stop and tell them "just go where I make you go".

 

[drop bear]

Police arrests. Because apparently criminals don't resist arrest.

In another recent thread, the subject was eye pokes. I posted a video of people being poked in the eye and being incapacitated for several seconds. He was in complete denial that someone with their back turned, unable to see, and not paying attention was unable to fight.

That was Jojo.