The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[jobo]

Eh, I was talking about Dan the Wolfman who is both stronger and more skilled than the people he grapples with in his videos. I think he'd be better served getting one of his scrawney students and having that student using those Aikido methods on bigger and stronger grapplers.

his size is reasonably obvious, whats not clear is how you have assessed his strength and that of the scrawny student ? the immediate solution would seem to be for scrawning students to hit the gym, if they don't already do so

his students may not wish to go against skilled grapplers, they may be reserving their efforts for aggressive drunk and road ragers

 

[Hanzou]

Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.

You do know that someone can be concussed or seriously injured by getting slammed in a ring right? The Octagon and Rings aren't mats, they're canvases.

 

[Hanzou]

his size is reasonably obvious, whats not clear is how you have assessed his strength and that of the scrawny student ? the immediate solution would seem to be for scrawning students to hit the gym, if they don't already do so

his students may not wish to go against skilled grapplers, they may be reserving their efforts for aggressive drunk and road ragers

Hmm, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm talking about....

 

[Martial D]

You do know that someone can be concussed or seriously injured by getting slammed in a ring right? The Octagon and Rings aren't mats, they're canvases.

It's unlikely that he knows that, given the rest of his posts.

I find it unlikely this fella has trained a day in his life.

 

[jobo]

Hmm, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm talking about....

your making a claim he is both bigger{ which he is} and stronger which you have no data for at all. just a stereotype

If he is indeed stronger than his students and that gives him an advantage in using the skills, they the students should seek to increase their strength, then they will have the same advantage

 

[Alan Smithee]

The discussion (you started) was someone getting slammed while in Guard. I countered that a Bjj person worth their salt on "da streetz" would know to release their Guard when they've lost posture control of their opponent.

I get it. You claim there are other grappling options to them against a wrestler when there's not a mat. I contend that these are highly idealistic assumptions against someone that works takedowns all the bloody time and is equally skilled at what he is doing as the jiuijitsu guy is on the ground. And yes, even if you introduce techniques that he is less familiar with.

There will always be outliers but my money is on the wrestler. That is all!

 

[Hanzou]

It's unlikely that he knows that, given the rest of his posts.

I find it unlikely this fella has trained a day in his life.

The mere idea that Bjj would be where it's at today if it got dominated by wrestlers (and Judoka) is utter nonsense. Who in there right mind would spend money and time to earn a Bjj blackbelt if they could manhandle Bjj black and brown belts with a few years wrestling experience? Again, part of the reason Bjj has gotten so successful is that it embraced American wrestling and made it a part of the system. Where its sister art Judo discourages and avoids wrestling, Bjj welcomes it with open arms.

 

[Hanzou]

your making a claim he is both bigger{ which he is} and stronger which you have no data for at all. just a stereotype

If he is indeed stronger than his students and that gives him an advantage in using the skills, they the students should seek to increase their strength, then they will have the same advantage

I think you need to watch the videos that Jow Ga posted. There is a clear size and strength advantage.

 

[jobo]

Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.

so how many times do you think a good level wrestler and a good level BJJ have had a street fight, ? im not saying it has never happened in the history of the world, BUT its significantly rare to make your point some what Moot

 

[jobo]

I think you need to watch the videos that Jow Ga posted. There is a clear size and strength advantage.

ok again HOW have you assessed to strength advantage ?

 

[Alan Smithee]

so how many times do you think a good level wrestler and a good level BJJ have had a street fight, ? im not saying it has never happened in the history of the world, BUT its significantly rare to make your point some what Moot

What difference does it make. The Gracies wanted to prove a point that "this is what would happen". That's why they challenged clubs all around the world and marketed their system.

 

[punisher73]

Ok, I still have no idea what the OP actually was. It was first pointed out that rolling out of a submission/wrist lock is done for training as a method of countering a joint lock. Then it moved to wrist locks don't work at all. THEN is moved to aikido doesn't work because they don't train with resistance. Hard to make a point when you keep moving the target.

But, since the focus seems to be on arts that use "live training" as an example. Here is a dvd set by a world champion BJJ player who covers just wrist locks from any standing/ground position and how to properly apply them. Also, note that using a wrist lock should be "sneaky" and not just grabbing at someone to apply it. Note, this is not an advertisement for the product, just using to highlight it as an example if you read the description because he talks about how most BJJ players never learned wrist locks, which is why most don't use or attempt them and how most who do know them don't use them properly.

Wristlock The World - Pete The Greek DVD Review – BJJ World

 

[Hanzou]

I get it. You claim there are other grappling options to them against a wrestler when there's not a mat. I contend that these are highly idealistic assumptions against someone that works takedowns all the bloody time and is equally skilled at what he is doing as the jiuijitsu guy is on the ground. And yes, even if you introduce techniques that he is less familiar with.

There will always be outliers but my money is on the wrestler. That is all!

Bro, I can assure you that wrestlers aren't working double ankle or waiter sweeps. Why would you ever work something like that in a sport where you lose if you're on your back?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Bro, I can assure you that wrestlers aren't working double ankle or waiter sweeps.

Who cares what they decide to do? You are in their world unless you pull guard or do something rather spectacular to get them into your world. They are not going to fall for the tricks in the early days.

 

[jobo]

What difference does it make. The Gracies wanted to prove a point that "this is what would happen". That's why they challenged clubs all around the world and marketed their system.

it makes a difference as your predicting an outcome for two arts you have no experience of and have never seen used against each in a street altercation other wise to have any understanding as to what may happen

which makes your prediction fanciful at best

 

[Hanzou]

Who cares what they decide to do? You are in their world unless you pull guard or do something rather spectacular to get them into your world. They are not going to fall for the tricks in the early days.

Wow, that point flew right over your head. Oh well...

So let me ask you again; If wrestlers are so effective at stopping BJJ completely, why do so many of them train in it all the way to black belt? If you're a collegiate wrestler and you can impose your will on an entire class full of Bjj practitioners including their instructor on your first day, why would you stick around?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Ok, I still have no idea what the OP actually was. It was first pointed out that rolling out of a submission/wrist lock is done for training as a method of countering a joint lock. Then it moved to wrist locks don't work at all. THEN is moved to aikido doesn't work because they don't train with resistance. Hard to make a point when you keep moving the target.

What is so hard to understand? Aikido rests on the assumption that you have to comply to the wrist locks or else you get hurt, hence there is no real live resistance, hence you can never master anything because it's all choreographed in advance.

To that I asked: what makes someone a technical master of an art that is all choreographed?

 

[Alan Smithee]

So let me ask you again; If wrestlers are so effective at stopping BJJ completely, why do so many of them train in it all the way to black belt? If you're a collegiate wrestler and you can impose your will on an entire class full of Bjj practitioners including their instructor on your first day, why would you stick around?

Because they aren't effective at stopping it on the mat/competition formats. I think I've written 5 times now that pulling guard reliably beats wrestling and even judo on the mat if they don't know BJJ.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.

That's true. But that's the reality that we all train for right? Bigger size = more functional muscle strength. Better skilled = You do style A better than your opponent does style A.

If you want to see to see someone of equal size and strength use it, then there is a clip of one of his students (I think it was his student) who is in a BJJ match that uses a wrist lock to take his opponent now. He actually points that out because he knew that there would be people like you who would say that he's only able to do the techniques because of his size. The video of his student in competition illustrates that people of the same size and relative strength can be successful with the technique.

 

[Hanzou]

Because they aren't effective at stopping it on the mat/competition formats. I think I've written 5 times now that pulling guard reliably beats wrestling and even judo on the mat if they don't know BJJ.

So if they aren't effective at stopping them in training and competition formats, why would they be able to stop them on "da streetz"?