The layered bunkai theory is stupid

JowGaWolf

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I really like the footwork used in this clip. Sometimes I just walked like this for 1/2 miles. Dynamic punch is always more fun to train than static punch.

If you try the following drill in 2 different ways:

Pull your punch back to

1. high guard.
2. your waist.

Do you feel that 1 can give you more speed, and 2 can give you more power?

I'm curious to see who was able to get the foot work.

For me all of it was awkward. Just getting the footwork to a point where I could do a bad version of this was a challenge. Lots of power disconnect for me.

Here's what I experienced.
Copying the video.
1. I felt like I kept pulling my arm back more than what was shown in the video.
2. I kept referencing Jow Ga techniques because I had a problem with the footwork. When I thought about that movement, I was able to do the footwork better, but returning hand kept moving into a blocking positio.. Similar to this position but with the fist chest level straight punch. So I went back to trying to do what I saw in the video without thinking of the same footwork in Jow Ga. Not having my clearing hand made me feel naked like I was going to get punched in my face.
3. I also changed the type of fist that. I was using. Still awkward.
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4. When I got close enough to what I thought I was seeing. It didn't feel like I should draw my punching arm back for the type of fist that I was using. (leopard fist and phoenix fix). This is probably due to how the fist are use. But as soon as I made a Jow Ga fist, I could feel myself pulling back much more.

I've probably done it 20 times

Now for my answer.
#1. Felt Faster simply because my arm wasn't traveling as far
#2. Felt like I could connect more points of power generation, but that has more to do with pulling my arm into a deeper chamber. Even when I kept my arms high, I was still feeling that I can put more into the punch.

The fist however played a really big part to it all.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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For me all of it was awkward. Just getting the footwork to a point where I could do a bad version of this was a challenge. Lots of power disconnect for me.
In that clip, the punch and front foot landing are coordinated. The rest are just compressing.

Dynamic punch training is important.

 

drop bear

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In what way?
There is a saying correlation does not always mean causation.

So you take kata. And then apply it to the entire universe and suddenly all these mysteries are hidden inside it.


You can pull that trick with a whole bunch of things.
 

marvin8

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Starting at 4:23, Wing Chun Lap Sau (grabbing hand) vs Karate. Earlier attempts to grab failed. I don't believe it's as effective as a direct strike or kick; getting head control, underhook or overhook for throws.


 

marvin8

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Sort of like this, use boxing to get into trapping/grappling rangewhich they already do in MMA. They could have used distance control and lowered the lead hand to bait a step and committed rear hand punch from the opponent, then enter the clinch.

 

Gyakuto

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Theres a real preoccupation with kata actually being meaningful. In Iai kata are considered toho /inashi that is sword handling training (there are situational kata too - Jokyo). Things are made awkward with unnatural sitting positions, enemies positioned in less than convenient places to train you to shift your centre of gravity effectively when moving, fixing your gaze appropriately and manipulating a 75cm long razor blade without cutting your own limbs off!

This has really informed the way I view Karate kata and this insight suggests that the more complex a technique or its application the less likely its meant to be practical and more likely to be awkward.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Lmao, its pulling hand.
To pull, there must be a thing being pulled.
Unless the "pulling" is pulling the hand back. You're working the semantics from a translation - most languages don't translate very well literally - especially languages that are quite different (like English and Japanese).
 

Gerry Seymour

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Chambering an empty hand is stupid, and pointless, its just creating bad habits.

Are there scenarios where such a movement can be useful? Sure, but you have to actually teach people what youre doing and why youre doing it.
There is a method of teaching (don't know if it's traditional in easter MA, but I suspect it is) where there is little to no explanation. The student is expected to learn the movement and then learn from the movement. I don't think it's as effective (for most students) as what you describe, but I've seen some instructors be fairly effective with it, over the long term. I think it normally works pretty poorly in the US, where we have a cultural focus on individuality.

My point is that it's possible some of what we see in traditinoal teachings was meant to put the body in positions/transitions that would teach over time, without needing that explanation. I do believe (from my own experience) that some of what's in traditional forms and other teaching exercises is meant to exaggerate certain movements, positions, and principles beyond what you'd expect them to be in the chaos of a fight. In some cases, it's to create an exemplary version of the principle (how you can get the most of that specific principle or mechanic), and in other cases it's to create a position or transition that makes the principle (or mechanic) more necessary.
 

Gerry Seymour

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If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch? If a beginner just punches his arm without body rotation, is that bad habits?

IMO, a punch that come from a trained MA guy and a punch that come from a non-trained MA guy is one knows how to coordinate his body with his punch, the other doesn't.

The chambering is only the beginner level training.
This is what I think is really going on with that position.

I think you can either train for a more ideal (for beginner/intermediate) fighting position and have to work harder to learn the mechanics of the punch, or you can train in a position that teaches the mechanics of the punch and have to work harder to learn the ideal fighting position.

I eventually hedged these, and did both. I did use traditional drills for teaching punches, for students who didn't get a reasonable approximation when just put at a heavy bag. But for students who could deliver a reasonable facimile of a punch, the traditional drills were far less common. I still wanted them to know the drills, so I could use them elsewhere in class, so they could use them to explore the mechanics (which I still do, personally), and in case they ever went on to teach or transferred to a more traditional school in the style.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Of course. It's how I teach. It's not particularly difficult to get good body rotation punching from a high guard.
I found most students could learn to punch reasonably well without the traditional drill (our approach to punches was allegedly derived from Shotokan Karate - perhaps also/instead Goju). I did find those who struggled initially benefitted from the traditional standing punch/walking punch drills that used the more explicit mechanics with the chamber. Once they were able to start doing that, I could move them back to the heavy bag.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Like I said, provide time stamps of when you think he was doing hikite.
Ive seen plenty of his fights and sparrings, and have never seen him do hikite in a fight.
Your response to "tell me what your definition of hikite is" was "show me his hikite". If JGW doesn't know how you're defining the term, how can he show you that?

Or are you avoiding that, so you can keep saying "that's not hikite", rather than bringing an actual argument?
 

Gerry Seymour

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As students progress, they get more and more comfortable in their karate (or taekwondo, etc). Hikite becomes ingrained in their body and its almost more natural to do than not to do it.
This hasn't been my experience. My primary instructor (in fact all of my NGA instructors) used almost exclusively traditional drills for teaching strikes. I've done many thousands of reps on those drills. Put me at a heavy bag, and I don't unconsciously chamber low (though I've had the same tendency to lower a hand that all people seem to have to train past). In sparring, I don't unconsciouly chamber low.

And I've never seen that unconscious chambering from any student or sparring partner once they got past the beginner stage.
 

Gerry Seymour

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A valid test is to have someone go to a MMA gym, spar, chamber all their punches empty and video the results.
That would be a silly test. It'd be the same if I said you have to go to a boxing gym and all you can use for defense is a high guard to ward off jabs. You'd get eaten alive while using a proven-effective technique, because your opponent knows what you're not aloowed to defend and can destroy you with shots to your liver or other undefended openings.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Theres a real preoccupation with kata actually being meaningful. In Iai kata are considered toho /inashi that is sword handling training (there are situational kata too - Jokyo). Things are made awkward with unnatural sitting positions, enemies positioned in less than convenient places to train you to shift your centre of gravity effectively when moving, fixing your gaze appropriately and manipulating a 75cm long razor blade without cutting your own limbs off!

This has really informed the way I view Karate kata and this insight suggests that the more complex a technique or its application the less likely its meant to be practical and more likely to be awkward.
I have come to the conclusion that some of the classical forms in NGA also are specifically designed to create difficulties, which are meant to be resolved by exercising aiki mechanics. They don't seem to have much direct application (though some might have, in an era of swords).
 

marvin8

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Please specify the 1 of 5 videos and time stamp. I am not understanding your argument
Since his argument isn't in the videos, I'm not sure what the time stamps would add.
That's what I was trying to determine after reading JGW's replies to my posts up to that point. The time stamps would help me better understand if JGW is arguing the videos and my posts or something else. My posts and videos were discussing an issue in the OP, "empty hikite."
 

marvin8

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This hasn't been my experience. My primary instructor (in fact all of my NGA instructors) used almost exclusively traditional drills for teaching strikes. I've done many thousands of reps on those drills. Put me at a heavy bag, and I don't unconsciously chamber low (though I've had the same tendency to lower a hand that all people seem to have to train past). In sparring, I don't unconsciouly chamber low.

And I've never seen that unconscious chambering from any student or sparring partner once they got past the beginner stage.
That is the articles quote. Thats your opinion and youre entitled to it. The OP, videos and article I posted are discussing that its a fundamental error to drop your other empty hand when punching. Because you can get hurt or knocked out and your offense may be slower. So, they (and other MAs) teach to keep your hands up or in front of you. Dropping your hands when you are out of range or the opponent is out of position may not matter as much. However, when you are in punching or kicking range, it can be harmful to oneself.
 

isshinryuronin

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Theres a real preoccupation with kata actually being meaningful. In Iai kata are considered toho /inashi that is sword handling training (there are situational kata too - Jokyo). Things are made awkward with unnatural sitting positions, enemies positioned in less than convenient places to train you to shift your centre of gravity effectively when moving, fixing your gaze appropriately and manipulating a 75cm long razor blade without cutting your own limbs off!

This has really informed the way I view Karate kata and this insight suggests that the more complex a technique or its application the less likely its meant to be practical and more likely to be awkward.
Definitely true that much attention is devoted to form in iai to keep all your limbs intact. A breakdown of form in karate kata will not send you to the hospital. As for iai's techniques being initiated from uncomfortable sitting positions, I guess back in the day sharing tea with another Samurai was a dangerous activity. Interesting to note that karate in the early 1900's also taught self-defense techniques from a sitting position.

Another difference between the two arts' form being meaningful is that by the latter 1800's the need for sword fighting skills was largely diminished and such related skills were used for spiritual development and historical value. Unarmed combat was still needed and employed, even to this day, so karate's "preoccupation" with form is not unwarranted.
 

marvin8

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That would be a silly test. It'd be the same if I said you have to go to a boxing gym and all you can use for defense is a high guard to ward off jabs. You'd get eaten alive while using a proven-effective technique, because your opponent knows what you're not aloowed to defend and can destroy you with shots to your liver or other undefended openings.
However if your argument is chambering an empty hikite cannot get you hurt or knocked out, then that would be some evidence arguing their (OP, videos, article) point.
 
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