The layered bunkai theory is stupid

JowGaWolf

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That tournament (1978) was full contact (with only garden gloves) with no head contact. It shows a good takedown skill can work over and over even on the same person.
I've seen all of those videos and they are excellent videos. There are others out there.
 

JowGaWolf

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That tournament (1978) was full contact (with only garden gloves) with no head contact. It shows a good takedown skill can work over and over even on the same person.
Here's one that you can show for when you talk about planting someone's head into the ground
 

marvin8

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That makes no sense on so many levels. Why do I need to go test something that I already use? Why do I need to go test something that you don't believe to be true? The only thing that will happen is that I'll come back and tell you that I used it.
Because, you're arguing their argument, "If you train by chambering every punch empty to the waist, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."

Then, your argument is "If you train by chambering every punch empty to the waist, then do that in a fight you can not get hurt, knocked out or killed."

You can just as easily find videos where the fighter gets hurt or KOd, because they didn't have their other hand up while throwing a punch.

If you are talking about jabs then you will return your hand to a bended state. Throw a jab and never pull your hand back to the ready state and see if you can throw another jab without bringing that arm back.
Again, the argument is not about retracting a jab. It's about training the step jab with hikitechambering the rear hand to the waist.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Because, you're arguing their argument, "If you train by chambering every punch empty to the waist, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."
Every punch gets chambered. Show me a punch that's not chambered before it strikes and I'll show you a straight arm.

Not true. Case in point.

This is Jow Ga Kung Fu. Beginner form. I can use all but 3 of these techniques in sparring regardless of the intensity level. Students train these forms hundreds and sometimes thousands of times. If training chambering in kata or in this case kung fu forms follows your reasoning then people who train this form should be able to fight with the techniques.

But the reality is. Kata / Forms is not the same as application training (specifically sparring.) This guy has done the sei ping form hundreds and maybe thousands of times.. Yet we do not see it in his fighting.

Kata is not the same as fighting. I've said this multiple times. Other people in this group have said this multiple times. So just because you do something over and over in kata does not mean it will be habit in fighting. I also train chambering my fist in my forms hundreds of times. But i not a habit. I choose when and how to chamber my fist. chanbering is not some habit that I naturally do without purpose of function. It is a trained response. Habit is me automatically puttling my hands up even when I don't need to. And it happens for no other reason but to be there closer to my head than closer to my legs.


This is a screen shot from a video clip of me showing someone how I do front kicks. There is no purpose or reason for me to be in high guard just to show someone how I train kicks. I'm not at risk of being knocked out, I'm not punching the bad. It's just habit. This is where I park my fist unless I have to move them to somewhere else. I don't think about it' just the default habit. The only way this guard is habit is because I use it in sparring. This high guard does not exist in my beginner form.
1702250757156.png


This is my trained chamber. It is not a parking space for my hands. It is a stop sign before landing this punch. It is like loading a cannon ball into a cannon that. It won't be there for much longer but it's ready to fire. This is why I keep telling you. Hands up should be the habit, low chamber should be the trained action. Every punch that I do is not chambered like this.
1702251052474.png
 
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marvin8

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Because, you're arguing their argument, "If you train by chambering every punch empty to the waist, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."

Then, your argument is "If you train by chambering every punch empty to the waist, then do that in a fight you can not get hurt, knocked out or killed."

You can just as easily find videos where the fighter gets hurt or KOd, because they didn't have their other hand up while throwing a punch.
Every punch gets chambered. Show me a punch that's not chambered before it strikes and I'll show you a straight arm.
I believe you may be over complicating it. The argument is chambering the other hand to your waist when you're punching as illustrated by again the videos and article: the Machidas, Atlas, Hackleman and "Hikite The Withdrawing Hand:"
 
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JowGaWolf

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The argument is chambering the other hand to your waist when you're punching as illustrated by again the videos and article: the Machidas, Atlas, Hackelman and "Hikite The Withdrawing Hand:"
Is it what? What' do you want to know? Is it wrong to chamber the punch to your waist in a realy fight? No
Is it wrong to chamber the punch to your waist in training? No
Thats not remotely true.
Again absolutely unproven pseudoscience圯ven calling it pseudoscience gives it too much legitimacy.
Give it a try.

throw your first punch but leave that hand extended. Let me know how it feels when you throw your second punch. After you throw that second punch leave your second punch extended, so now you should have 2 harms fully extended. Now try to throw 3rd punch without bending your arms.

Let me know how that works for you.
 

marvin8

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Is it what? What' do you want to know? Is it wrong to chamber the punch to your waist in a realy fight? No
Is it wrong to chamber the punch to your waist in training? No
No. Either you are arguing the following or something else (straw man). The videos and article are linked, clickable.

The argument to the videos and article: the Machidas, Atlas, Hackleman and "Hikite The Withdrawing Hand:" is...

"If you train every punch by chambering the other hand empty to the waist, then do that in a fight, you can not get hurt, knocked out or killed."
 
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JowGaWolf

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"If you train every punch by chambering the other hand empty to the waist, then do that in a fight, then you can not get hurt, knocked out or killed."
No I don't believe that. Chambering has nothing to do with getting knocked out. Not sure what that has to do with Hikite.
Everyone can get knocked out.
Everyone can get hurt and will get hurt.
There's always a risk of dying.

So why would I say that those things can not happen? And what does that have to do with Hikite?
 

marvin8

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No I don't believe that. Chambering has nothing to do with getting knocked out. Not sure what that has to do with Hikite.
Everyone can get knocked out.
Everyone can get hurt and will get hurt.
There's always a risk of dying.

So why would I say that those things can not happen? And what does that have to do with Hikite?
You would say that to argue their argument...

"If you train every punch by chambering the other hand empty to the waist, then do that in a fight, you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."

"Do not train every punch by chambering the other hand empty to the waist, then do that in a fight. Because, you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."

Instead, "Train every punch by keeping or returning the other hand to a guard position, not the waist. This will train you to be defensively responsible in a fight and give a lesser chance of being hurt or knocked out."
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Every punch gets chambered.
I just came back from my 4 miles beach running/walking/training (2 hours workout). I drilled the following 1,2 combo:

1. Left arm upward block, right punch.
2. Left arm downward block, right punch again.

After I finished 1 and when I continue on 2, I didn't pull my right punch back fully. I just pull my right punch a bit behind my left hand before I punch out again. This will give me the maximum speed. But this won't give me the maximum power (because I didn't compress enough before I release).

So, the whole chambering issue is really a tradeoff between speed and power. A short distance can give you more speed. But a long distance can give you more power.
 

JowGaWolf

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If you train every punch by chambering the other hand empty to the waist, then do that in a fight, you can get hurt, knocked out or killed."
Again this has nothing to do with getting knocked out. My understanding of that video was that hikite was not functional in a real fight so why bother doing it in training. Which is why he says that he doesn't train it in his school. Lyoto got knocked out in his last fight and it wast because of hikite.

To be honest more people probably get knocked our because they drop their guard or extended their hands and not because the were doing pulling hand. Many people get knocked down by overhand punches that go over a raised guard.



Instead, "Train every punch by keeping or returning the other hand to a guard position, not the waist.
Nope. Because not every punch uses the same chamber. I could never do long fist if I follow that advice.
 

JowGaWolf

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After I finished 1 and when I continue on 2, I didn't pull my right punch back fully.
Fully is a description of how far back you are chambering. Not every punch is supposed to be pulled back fully. But they will be pulled pull back to load the punch




So, the whole chambering issue is really a tradeoff between speed and power. A short distance can give you more speed. But a long distance can give you more power
Correct but all require a pull back of some sort in order be a punch.
 

marvin8

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Again this has nothing to do with getting knocked out. My understanding of that video was that hikite was not functional in a real fight so why bother doing it in training. Which is why he says that he doesn't train it in his school.
Yes it does. Lyoto doesn't say don't pull/grab hands, etc.

In the demo, Lyoto says when throwing the left jab they teach to chamber the right hand close to the chin, not to the waist.

If instead you chamber your right hand to the waist, it takes more time therefore harder to block incoming punches. So there is a higher chance of getting hurt or KOd by chambering your right hand to your waist vs close to the chin. And it's slower to use the right hand for follow up punches like the 1-2.


Lyoto got knocked out in his last fight and it wast because of hikite.
Right, because Lyoto was not throwing a punch when he got KOd.

To be honest more people probably get knocked our because they drop their guard or extended their hands and not because the were doing pulling hand.
Yes! That's what the Machidas are demoing. Don't drop the right hand to the waist when throwing the left jab. Keep it close to the chin to block and throw follow up punches.
 

JowGaWolf

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In the demo, Lyoto says when throwing the left jab they teach to chamber the right hand close to the chin, not to the waist
He can teach what he wants it's his school.

If instead you chamber your right hand to the waist, it takes more time therefore harder to block incoming punches.
It depends on how you set up the chambered punch. I you face me in a closed stance then all I have to do is pull your lead hand across your body then you will not be able to punch me with your other hand before I land a straight punch body shot to your ribs. If I pull you hand across your body and downward then your structure will break which gives me more time to land the shot. If your structure breaks then the first thing your brain will do is to try to regain balance or resist the pull. Either way those actions means that you are doing something other than trying to punch back at me.

Again this is an advanced technique. You can only apply the thing you understand. How can I apply an arm bar if I do not understand how to do so. How can you safely apply a fist chambered st the hip if you do not know ow how to safely do this?

Don't drop the right hand to the waist when throwing the left jab. Keep it close to the chin to block and throw follow up punches.
Dropping the right is not the same as chambering at the waist. Do you drop a glass on the floor when your goal is to place a glass on the floor? Or do you use a different movement to achieve the goal.

If I want to chamber at the waist then I'm not going to do so by dropping a high guard that should be up. I'm going to use the pull hand movement to get to the chamber at the waist
 

marvin8

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He can teach what he wants it's his school.
The Machidas demo and discuss one of the OP issues of "chambering an empty hikite" when striking...

My issue is that the beginners interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.

Again this is an advanced technique. You can only apply the thing you understand. How can I apply an arm bar if I do not understand how to do so. How can you safely apply a fist chambered st the hip if you do not know ow how to safely do this?
Again, the Machidas, combat sports, etc. pull/grab. However, that was not the issue mentioned in the OP. It was about the "empty hikite." The Machidas may teach pull/grab hikite in advanced classes, which Lyoto has shown in his fights.

Dropping the right is not the same as chambering at the waist. Do you drop a glass on the floor when your goal is to place a glass on the floor? Or do you use a different movement to achieve the goal.
Dropping or chambering the right hand to the waist can be the same distance and time. Both take more time to block, throw punches and grab/pull than from keeping the right hand chambered close to the chin.

If I want to chamber at the waist then I'm not going to do so by dropping a high guard that should be up. I'm going to use the pull hand movement to get to the chamber at the waist
Chambering or dropping the right hand to the waist when throwing the left jab is dropping your guard, exposing the right side of your body and facewhich makes you more vulnerable to you being hurt or knocked out.

Apparently, you got confused on the Wing Chun Man Sau video. It was showing how you keep your hands in front of you to defend, offend and grab/pull, not chamber them to your waist. An "empty hikite" is a dead hand which is against the teachings of Motobu Choki.

There is no dead hand in Karate.
- Motobu Choki
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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No. Either you are arguing the following or something else (straw man). The videos and article are linked, clickable.
I'm not commenting on the argument, but just commenting on you referring to straw man. Straw man is when someone is actively creating a persona that they can win an argument against. It's not misunderstanding someone's argument, or arguing incorrectly against them. Generally by the time that two people are actually engaged in debate, without referring to a third party, a straw man is not happening.
 

marvin8

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I'm not commenting on the argument, but just commenting on you referring to straw man. Straw man is when someone is actively creating a persona that they can win an argument against. It's not misunderstanding someone's argument, or arguing incorrectly against them. Generally by the time that two people are actually engaged in debate, without referring to a third party, a straw man is not happening.
My understanding (which can be wrong) of straw man is JowGaWolf in attempt to refute an argument (e.g., 3 videos and an article on not chambering, empty hikite, etc. ) addresses only a weak or distorted version of itwhether he realizes it or means to or not. JGW didn't seem to be arguing the position given (not necessarily my position). So, I brought up straw man (distorted version) in post #127 to try and clarify their position and see if JGW was on the same page, "Either you are arguing the following or something else (straw man). The videos and article are linked, clickable." I put (straw man) in to help clarify. I believed it to be a possible unintentional straw man argument, if there is such a word. However, that may have been the wrong word.

JGW may not be arguing against their position. I don't believe JGW is creating a persona or anything else. It can be a misunderstanding on mine or both our parts. I don't feel I was debating as much as explaining a given position.
 
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_Simon_

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Hikite ay.... an oft contentious subject!

Harry Potter and the Hikite of Secrets!
 

JowGaWolf

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Motobu Choki
Just looked him up. Many of the things he does and perception of martial arts is same. The biggest difference would be "If you don't fight that way then why train that way." My saying is "We fight how we train" Both of these think need context in order to understand what is meant and by what degree. This makes me think that that some of his quotes are taken out of context.
.I'm still trying to find some of his kata. I'm hoping to find photos of him doing it.
 
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