The layered bunkai theory is stupid

JowGaWolf

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The argument is not about "step jab with a low chamber." It's about training the step jab with hikite—chambering the rear hand to the waist.
I will show you my training for this. So you can see the other part.

Tomorrow when I go to the gym to work out I will record the following combination.

Straight punch with left hand while pulling back into"Hikite" with right hand, then pulling back into "Hikite" with left hand and straight punch with right hand.

Target of punches will be chest level and maybe abdomen level. I will hitting a heavy bag so I won't be able to do any upward strikes on it. I like the skin on my knuckles, so I can only punch at a level in which my punch goes straight into the bag and straight back from the bag. The gym that I go to doesn't have this.

The point of me doing this is not to show show you "Hikite" but to show you that the same pulling of the hand back to that low chamber on the hip is not as faulty as some would have others believe. Now if you don't think it's faulty then I won't bother showing recording my workout.
 

isshinryuronin

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What was the grappling system that Judo was born from? Is it possible to trace it back?
It was basically the safer sport and public school version of jiu-jutsu, with the more dangerous joint locks, twists, breaks and strikes removed. Jigoro Kano, a jiu-jutsu practitioner, developed this sport around 1900. Like Funakoshi Gichin, he was an educator and took his art into the schools and onto the world stage. He is also known for developing the belt grading system which Japan also soon adopted for karate, the Okinawans following suit about fifteen years later.

Karate's grappling was influenced by Kung Fu, in part, as some of their grappling techniques are illustrated in the Bubishi, a Chinese MA manual that reached Okinawa in the late 1800's and much studied by the early karate masters. Okinawa also had its own grappling type art but little is known about it and probably not a karate influencer. As for early jiu-jutsu being a factor in karate technique, I haven't heard or read anything about it, but I wouldn't rule it out.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Okinawa also had its own grappling type art but little is known about it and probably not a karate influencer. As for early jiu-jutsu being a factor in karate technique, I haven't heard or read anything about it, but I wouldn't rule it out.
I'll keep my eyes out for this. In terms of kung fu I read or was told sometime in my life that many of the grappling systems split off from a main system of striking and grappling. Grappling was the safer of the two and the last thing you want is for your warriors / soldiers to be injured. It was just bad business to have the village protectors to be all busted up for the enemy to take advantage of. Wrestling allowed them to train while minimizing the injury and the healing time. It allowed them to train while staying in fighting condition.
 
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GojuTommy

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So what is your definition of Hikite? Because if you don't see hikite as I see it then there's no point in me posting a low chambered fist that is waist level or near waist level pulled back ready to punch.
Like I said, provide time stamps of when you think he was doing hikite.
I’ve seen plenty of his fights and sparrings, and have never seen him do hikite in a fight.
 
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GojuTommy

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It was basically the safer sport and public school version of jiu-jutsu, with the more dangerous joint locks, twists, breaks and strikes removed. Jigoro Kano, a jiu-jutsu practitioner, developed this sport around 1900. Like Funakoshi Gichin, he was an educator and took his art into the schools and onto the world stage. He is also known for developing the belt grading system which Japan also soon adopted for karate, the Okinawans following suit about fifteen years later.

Karate's grappling was influenced by Kung Fu, in part, as some of their grappling techniques are illustrated in the Bubishi, a Chinese MA manual that reached Okinawa in the late 1800's and much studied by the early karate masters. Okinawa also had its own grappling type art but little is known about it and probably not a karate influencer. As for early jiu-jutsu being a factor in karate technique, I haven't heard or read anything about it, but I wouldn't rule it out.
…what do you mean little is known about okinawa’s grappling art? It still exists…it’s called tegumi also know as shima or muto depending on what part of the ryukyus you’re in.



 

JowGaWolf

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Like I said, provide time stamps of when you think he was doing hikite.
I’ve seen plenty of his fights and sparrings, and have never seen him do hikite in a fight.
You do realize I've been showing and giving the time markers for a lot of stuff. For example, I intentionally captured the time of the video in this screenshot. The stuff where he's doing what I would consider and even what some other Karate black belt consider Hikite are things that you have already said that he wasn't doing. I don't know how another round of time stamps is going to help.
1702163779915.png
 
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GojuTommy

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You do realize I've been showing and giving the time markers for a lot of stuff. For example, I intentionally captured the time of the video in this screenshot. The stuff where he's doing what I would consider and even what some other Karate black belt consider Hikite are things that you have already said that he wasn't doing. I don't know how another round of time stamps is going to help.
View attachment 30435
I’ve been sharing screen shots, that completely lack context just like this one right here.

1. Calling that hikite is a stretch.
2. There’s not enough context from this picture to claim this is even remotely hikite.

Again you’ve shown so many times in this discussion you’re comfortable trying speak authoritatively on subjects that you’re not well educated on, and and it seems like this is very much another example of that.
 

isshinryuronin

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…what do you mean little is known about okinawa’s grappling art? It still exists…it’s called tegumi also know as shima or muto depending on what part of the ryukyus you’re in.
As the beginning of the clip you provided says, according to Nagamine's book, Tales of the Okinawan Masters (which I have read), little is known about the original Okinawan grappling system so it's difficult to know what part it played in early karate. What exists today is much like sumo whose techniques are not common in karate.

The Wikipedia article from which it seems you got your info also refers to tegumi as "rural wrestling" inferring that the common people from the countryside engaged in it. However, karate was not developed by them. The early masters were from aristocratic families and received much of their MA training in China. With the scarcity of written materials other than the Bubishi, there are gaps in the art's early history.

I will correct my "probably not" to: It's possible some early "tegumi" found its way into the art. There was no single organized karate curriculum nor specific styles back then other than Shuri, Tomari and Naha-te, (all these towns, and others, were within a day or two walking distance from one another) each master teaching their own personal brand. Moves may have been incorporated by some of them from various sources and shared with other masters. We just don't know for sure.

The main point is karate employed more than just strikes and kicks, a feature somewhat lost/minimized during its evolution starting in the 1920's up to modern times, though still preserved in kata in varying degrees.
 

JowGaWolf

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. Calling that hikite is a stretch.
You say that it's a stretch. You say that it's not Hikite but never explain why you say that it's a stretch or why it's not Hikite. In addition, I'm not the only one who has the perception that I have.

I see the same talk that you and the OP give and it's the same type of stuff that Rokas started saying about his own system that it was useless, but it took him many years after quitting Aikido and training MMA to realize that Aikido doesn't suck and that it was his lack of understanding of the techniques that was why he felt that way.

It's always the same. Those who understand the least about a technique have the most to say about something not working. Those who understand it often don't have that frustration of "Making stuff work" or the comments " It doesn't work." If I can throw long fist techniques from way behind my back with my arm almost straight and land those successfully, then a fist chambered at the him should be easy.

Again you’ve shown so many times in this discussion you’re comfortable trying speak authoritatively on subjects that you’re not well educated on, and and it seems like this is very much another example of that.
Lets see. Her are some people of Authorithy higher belt than you. They know more than you. But not like that matters


"Hikite is the pulling hand motion"

I don't have to be an authority on Karate because the same concept is in Kung Fu. Do you really think that Karate is the only martial arts that chambers their fist like that?
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Oh I forgot no other system trains the same or similar techniques. Every system is 100% unique.

 

Buka

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Something like this.

That was a lot of fun to watch, I enjoyed that.

If I was in charge I’d add strikes to the face and thirty seconds on the ground after a takedown, that would be perfect tournament rules to me.

I know thirty seconds on the ground isn’t long enough, but tournaments take long enough as it is. Any longer and you’d have to bring sleeping bags.
 

marvin8

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He asked why do you train Hikite with a low chamber and why you don't train it with a high chamber. That's becauses it's Kata.
At 2:29, Lyoto says, "Why you training hikite here [chambered at the waist] and during the fight you’re not using it here? You put up. Why? You teach to put up. Otherwise, you’re going to get hurt." Here is the Machida's Kata Tai Shodan.


There is evidence that Hikite works...There is no argument when I have show others who use it.
Hikite is to grab the opponent’s arm, pull it and unbalance them. It's not to throw a punch while chambering the other hand to the waist empty (dead hand). A pulling hand is used in combat sports and MAs. There is no argument. However, it doesn't require chambering to the waist.

Here's a video on Man Sau (Asking Hand) that keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.


Here's a video on Wing Chun's Grabbing Hand (Lap Sau). However, I have never seen a Wing Chun person use Lap Sau in a fight. I have only seen boxers and MMA fighters use a grabbing hand in a fight. Combat sports also control their opponent without contact by controlling the space and positioning, then strike on contact.


Why was that shop owner able use Hikite as it's trained in Kata? Many people think you'll get knocked out if you try to use it.
No, many people say if you train by chambering every punch empty, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed. You can drop your hands and avoid getting hit by controlling distance and position. However, chambering every punch in striking range makes you vulnerable.

Excerpt from "Hikite – The Withdrawing Hand:"

Hikite Can Become a Hindrance

As students progress, they get more and more comfortable in their karate (or taekwondo, etc). Hikite becomes ingrained in their body and it’s almost more natural to do than not to do it.

Soon hikite pops up everywhere – in kata, in bag drills, and even in self defense routines. Realism begins to get substituted for karate habit...

Another way hikite becomes a hindrance is during sparring or when returning strikes during self defense. If you are engaged with an opponent, you want to keep your primary defenses (your hands) in front of you as much as possible. Also, you want strike as quickly as possible. Why would you return a hand all the way to your belt, open up your centerline, just to try and send it back out for a punch? Karate people who use hikite in this way will always be at risk of getting their block knocked off by boxing style fighters.


tSDwU8Y.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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Something like this.

For me it's like this and I don't hold it there as long as the person in the video. The reason I don't hold it there as long is because it doesn't take long to find an opening or a need to bring the hand back into guard. I wouldn't try to walk down a person with it because the distance between me and my opponent is long enough to see the hand hiding behind my back. That's why the person in the video was hesitant to attack yellow and he knew that yellow was trying to hit him with the raised hand behind his back.

1702226810279.png


Jow Ga does have a punch that we raise above our head. Similar to this but much higher. If it's too low then my opponent will easily see it. It has to be high enough for either my opponent to ignore it or track it.
1. If he ignores it then I can hit him with it.
2. If he tracks it then it means that his field of vision has change and that he there is a larger blind spot under him for me to send a kick or a low punch.

I can tell what my opponent is doing by his reaction. If he looks like he's getting ready to defend a strike from my rear hand then I know he's tracking it. If he acts as if I haven't done anything differently then I can hit him with the hand above my head.

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We also have one that we want our opponents to see. My left arm has just finished striking, My right arm come up to do the work. I didn't realize until know that this is the same posture that is in Tai chi. lol I usually don't screenshot my workouts. But any way the right hand hand is held high so that I can put it in action, the low arm is in ready state and from this video I'm actually starting the my second attack with that right arm.

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JowGaWolf

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Why you training hikite here [chambered at the waist] and during the fight you’re not using it here? You put up. Why? You teach to put up. Otherwise, you’re going to get hurt." Here is the Machida's Kata Tai Shodan.
then I showed you screenshots of him and others using the the low chamber. Then I showed you videos of an old man using it to knock someone out in one punch, then I showed you videos of black belt instructors and masters talking about Hikite. Your Hikite only

Hikite is to grab the opponent’s arm, pull it and unbalance them. It's not to throw a punch while chambering the other hand to the waist empty (dead hand). A pulling hand is used in combat sports and MAs. There is no argument. However, it doesn't require chambering to the waist.
Like I said soo many times already. If your definition of hitkie is not the same as mine then we will never see the same thing. Your definition of Hikite is very limited. So even this example goes beyond your "is to grab arm reasoning"


No, many people say if you train by chambering every punch empty, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed. You can drop your hands and avoid getting hit by controlling distance and position. However, chambering every punch in striking range makes you vulnerable.
That's be cause chambering a punch is like that is not a beginner technique. The assumption that it's a beginner technique is because it's something that beginners do. It is an advanced technique by application. It is not simply placing a hand on the hip. It is placed there for a reason. If you do not understand that reaon then it will fail you. If you don't understand the timing or distance needed for it to be successful, then it will fail. If you think you should always chamber that deep then it will fail you.

If you can't understand that hikite is like everything else. Right time, Right situation. Then you do not understand Hikite. This is true for every technique not just Hikite.


Here's a video on Man Sau (Asking Hand) that keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.

Pulling hand in high chamber
1702230993030.png



Pulling hand in low chamber. Notice his hand is open. Empty hand. Not grabbing onto anything.
1702231159722.png


As students progress, they get more and more comfortable in their karate (or taekwondo, etc). Hikite becomes ingrained in their body and it’s almost more natural to do than not to do it.

Soon hikite pops up everywhere – in kata, in bag drills, and even in self defense routines. Realism begins to get substituted for karate habit...
This is why I train guard up. Hikite is a technique and like every technique it should be done at the right time and in the right situation. It should not be a habit. So in the form I train it, In sparring I do not. In drill I do not.

High guard should be the habit.
Hikite should be the trained response

Again. Hikite is an advanced technique,
If you are engaged with an opponent, you want to keep your primary defenses (your hands) in front of you as much as possible.
This is the habit

Also, you want strike as quickly as possible.
This is the train response. When I throw a 1-2 combinatin, I want to pull hand back from the first punch as fast as possible so I can send my next punch as soon as possible. This is the same concept shown here as this exercise trains the pulling motion.

It's the same punch drill seen in karate except with a lower chamber and more reps. Karate does a 1-2 rep because in fighting that's what it usually is. The multiple punches in the boxing video still builds up and condition the muscles for pulling



1702232248951.gif


This is what I talk about people not understanding punches. In traditional martial arts there are downward punches. The downward punches and the upward punching is for close range punching. When in close range the figure below will not be able to punch with straight punches. When boxers are in close range they being to throw hooks and uppercuts because they are too close to throw and effective Jab. Traditional martial arts solves this by throwing straight punches downward and upward.

That illustration above is from someone who doesn't understand that punch. Last night I was throwing and landing diagonal punches against my sparring partner every time he got into include clinching range. The downside of the downward punch in competition is that it doesn't allow the knuckles to do their job. Bare knuckles makes it possible to dig into the flesh. The upward punch works with or without gloves because it shoots under the field of vision.
 

JowGaWolf

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1702237612725.gif


A few years back I showed a video clip of me and the instructor doing body conditioning by punching each other in the stomach. I took it down and I don't share it these days. But here are some screenshots of me doing a downward punch. I had to listen to my partner whine about these punches without fully understanding the pain he was getting even though I was just tapping him.

1702238104338.png

this is me using another striking fist that hits with a bend wrist instead of a straight wrist. Looking back on it, this is me being cruel.
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the picture below is me feeling the punch for the first time.
1702239533119.png


This is me feeling the punch for the 5th time I think. There's a reason why my partner has that smile on his face. It's because he knows it work. After all he got hit with the same punches just a few minutes earlier. He hit me harder than what I hit him but his punches were still baby punches. I know first hand the damages of this punch and I banned this punch from being used for conditioning full stop. Even the baby punches were banned because that's what you are seeing the effects from. So when I see people speak of downward punches as not being useful, then it's clear to me that no one has ever given them a proper one.

1702240205569.png
 

marvin8

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then I showed you screenshots of him and others using the the low chamber. Then I showed you videos of an old man using it to knock someone out in one punch, then I showed you videos of black belt instructors and masters talking about Hikite. Your Hikite only
A valid test is to have someone go to a MMA gym, spar, chamber all their punches empty and video the results. Combat sports fighters are able to train without chambering empty punches, but still use grabbing/pulling in fights. Again,

A pulling hand is used in combat sports and MAs. There is no argument. However, it doesn't require chambering to the waist.

Here's a video on Man Sau (Asking Hand) that keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.

...

No, many people say if you train by chambering every punch empty, then do that in a fight you can get hurt, knocked out or killed. You can drop your hands and avoid getting hit by controlling distance and position. However, chambering every punch in striking range makes you vulnerable.

Like I said soo many times already. If your definition of hitkie is not the same as mine then we will never see the same thing. Your definition of Hikite is very limited. So even this example goes beyond your "is to grab arm reasoning"
“Hikite (引手): Here the meaning of hikite (pulling hand) is to grab the opponent’s arm and pull it, while twisting as much as possible, so that their posture is disrupted” – Gichin Funakoshi


This is the train response. When I throw a 1-2 combinatin, I want to pull hand back from the first punch as fast as possible so I can send my next punch as soon as possible. This is the same concept shown here as this exercise trains the pulling motion.

Yes, he's not chambering to the waist with empty hands.

View attachment 30444

This is what I talk about people not understanding punches. In traditional martial arts there are downward punches. The downward punches and the upward punching is for close range punching. When in close range the figure below will not be able to punch with straight punches.
Again, you can look at the Wing Chun Man Sau video, keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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That was a lot of fun to watch, I enjoyed that.

If I was in charge I’d add strikes to the face and thirty seconds on the ground after a takedown, that would be perfect tournament rules to me.

I know thirty seconds on the ground isn’t long enough, but tournaments take long enough as it is. Any longer and you’d have to bring sleeping bags.
That tournament (1978) was full contact (with only garden gloves) with no head contact. It shows a good takedown skill can work over and over even on the same person.
 

JowGaWolf

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A valid test is to have someone go to a MMA gym, spar, chamber all their punches empty and video the results. Combat sports fighters are able to train without chambering empty punches, but still use grabbing/pulling in fights. Again,
That makes no sense on so many levels. Why do I need to go test something that I already use? Why do I need to go test something that you don't believe to be true? The only thing that will happen is that I'll come back and tell you that I used it. Then you won't believe me and we'll be back in this same discussion. In addition there are already examples of what I've been saying and videos of others who are more qualified saying the same thing. Video after Video after Video.


If you are talking about jabs then you will return your hand to a bended state. Throw a jab and never pull your hand back to the ready state and see if you can throw another jab without bringing that arm back.

Then you have hook punches which don't require arm extension. A hooking arm can remind can pretty much remain in chambered state and the waist can be used to power the punch. I literally do this as a warm up to train my power generation from my waist.

Upper cuts work the same way. They can be long or compact the only thing that is needed is the twist of the waist and a good initial power drive with the legs.

Pulling your arm back after jabbing is the same thing that is called Chambering in TMA regardless of if Boxing, MMA or any other sport refer to it as chamber. In TMA that motion is going to be known as chambering.

The arm that is bent and ready to punch is the chambered hand. The act of getting the arm to that position would be the pulling hand, because you are pulling your hand back to that position.

The only good thing out of this entired thread i that it i probably the most extensive conversation with examples on the use of Hikite. or the motion of the pulling hand. and chambering.
 

JowGaWolf

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“Hikite (引手): Here the meaning of hikite (pulling hand) is to grab the opponent’s arm and pull it, while twisting as much as possible, so that their posture is disrupted” – Gichin Funakoshi
Not sure why you left out the image that goes along with your quote. "Here the meaning" The work "Here" refers to specifically to the application in this image and not the other applications of Hikite. If you look at the picture you can seei that this is a downward pull which doesn't pull your opponent towards your body, It pulls your opponent downward into your punch. We know that he's not pulling his opponent towards his body be cause of the structure of his pulling hand.

1702247624000.png


Yes, he's not chambering to the waist with empty hands.
Yes I know he is not chambering to the waist. Because the point of the video is to train the muscles that pull the punch backward when throwing jabs. Pull the the resistance band down toward your hip and you'll be training the muscles uses for chambering the hip. But the purpose of those video is to show the training of the muscles for pulling the hand back. Which I already stated before. The faster you can pull one hand back the sooner you can punch with the other.

Again, you can look at the Wing Chun Man Sau video, keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.
Why are you looking at an extended arm that is not pulling back? If he extends his arm and doesn't pulling it back then it can't be called a pulling hand. The extended arm cannot be called a pulling hand until he pulls his hand back.

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Here you can see where he pulled that extended hand back. Now we can call it the pulling hand. The pulling hand is not controlling the center. The extended hand is the one he said is controlling. The pulling hand is now in a ready state for punching with the left hand.
 
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