The Jump Guard and self defense

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're jumping and wrapping your legs around their waist. Even if they grip near your throat, the grip isn't going to be on same level after the jump, and you're probably also going to try a different grip to control the takedown.

What if when you jump up, at the same time, your opponent drops down. There will be that 1/4 second window.

When you have grips on your opponent, your opponent's intention can be sensed through your grip. When he tries to jump, his upper body will lean back.

 

[Hanzou]

What if when you jump up, at the same time, your opponent drops down. There will be that 1/4 second window.

When you have grips on your opponent, your opponent's intention can be sensed through your grip. When he tries to jump, his upper body will lean back.

There is a Jumping guard counter where you pull down on the gi as the person jumps to stuff it, but I'm not sure how well it works in no-gi.

 

[drop bear]

Stand up after a failed jump guard, or stand up while someone is attempting the sweep?

Stand up after the jump guard.

 

[FriedRice]

Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;

(warning: graphic stuff)

When would be a good opportunity to use this technique for self defense? Obviously you're not going to want to use it in a multiple assailant situation, but if you're struggling with one assailant and you need to take them down quickly, it seems perfectly reasonable to go for the Jumping guard. Now clearly your guard game needs to be on point (unless you happen to break their leg), but from the guard you can set up all sort of breaks, chokes, sweeps, etc.

I screamed at the 2nd video. Didn't learn my lesson and screamed even worse during the 3rd.

Here are the problems though:

1. Tourneys, they can't slam or be DQ'ed. So upon feeling a jumping guard, they have to brace and let you down slowly......and the Jumper gets full guard while the Jumpee spent a lot of energy letting him down. Add in the surprise effect + force + leg placement not being optimal = rare, but possible, SNAP.

2. In the street, if I feel the jump guard, I would immediately slam forward and thrusting the guy into the cement as hard as I can. I may pick him up and do it again if he's much lighter than me and still has his guard locked on.

3. In the street, most people will be untrained, so you shouldn't have to jump guard....even though, breaking their leg like this probably has a higher probability due to them being untrained. I wouldn't jump guard though...even if I absolutely must use my BJJ, I would prob. do a double with air time to slam them hard into the concrete....then get up quickly for a few soccer kicks or head stomps.... then do the "situational tactical awareness"...."scanning the perimeter" like a "tactically trained hawk" <--- The SD boyz know what I'm talking about

 

[Hanzou]

I've been checking out Kron Gracie's MMA guard pulls, and they're pretty impressive. Obviously if you're going to use them in a self defense situation, your guard better be top shelf. That said, I could imagine a Guard pull rolling very quickly into a sweep or submission.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've been checking out Kron Gracie's MMA guard pulls, and they're pretty impressive. Obviously if you're going to use them in a self defense situation, your guard better be top shelf. That said, I could imagine a Guard pull rolling very quickly into a sweep or submission.

Do you think the guard pulling will work in no jacket environment? Where will you grab on? When you use guard pulling, both of your opponent's hands are free. IMO, to assume that your opponent's hands won't do anything on you is not realistic.

 

[Hanzou]

Do you think the guard pulling will work in no jacket environment? Where will you grab on? When you use guard pulling, both of your opponent's hands are free. IMO, to assume that your opponent's hands won't do anything on you is not realistic.

Kron does it via the boxer clench, like many classic Bjj takedowns.

 

[dunc]

You do see jumping guard in old Japanese Jujutsu schools where the context is more self defence oriented & you're wearing a jacket

However, it's done differently from how we see it in BJJ. Rather than jumping up in order to pull your opponent down you:
- Jump up to attack with a leg squeeze (do jime in judo) and strike to the face pretty much simultaneously
- Immediately drop you upper body to facilitate a sweep
- Finish with an ankle lock and a kick to disentangle quickly

Whilst I think that this approach is better for the "street" & the surprise factor of this attack is huge, I'm with the others on this thread in that it's probably not a preferred stratagem in a self defence situation

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;

(warning: graphic stuff)

When would be a good opportunity to use this technique for self defense? Obviously you're not going to want to use it in a multiple assailant situation, but if you're struggling with one assailant and you need to take them down quickly, it seems perfectly reasonable to go for the Jumping guard. Now clearly your guard game needs to be on point (unless you happen to break their leg), but from the guard you can set up all sort of breaks, chokes, sweeps, etc.

I'd think it's a good answer for anyone with a strong guard game. Let me amend that, if your guard game is better (for your situation) than your standing game. As you say, it needs the presumption of a single opponent, but that's just part of the situation.

I hate the concept of jumping guard, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're good at it and the positions you're likely to progress to. I'd have to ask (and you probably know): what are the risks if jumping guard goes wrong? Failure mode (what happens if it doesn't work - how deep a hole have I dug for myself) is part of how I look at all MA techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, if its an effective takedown, why should it not be used?

That was exactly my thought. I see it - as you stated in your OP - a lot like a scissor takedown. If we ignore the guard part, it's a usable takedown. I don't really see it as conceptually different from drop seoi nage or the scissor takedown, both of which depend in part on "dragging them down" with your weight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting analysis.

Here's some more (again, graphic video):

Gruesome Knee Injury Caused By Jumping Guard In A BJJ Tournament

So you think someone could easily avoid this type of break if they've never trained how to counter it? Keep in mind, there's only three ways this can go: Into a Bjj exponent's guard, you somehow catching the Bjjer and being able to slam them, or if you're standing wrong when its pulled your leg snaps in multiple places.

I think the specific stance training in some arts (like Jow Ga) is likely to make the chance of a break very slim, without them knowing anything about a jump guard. If they also manage to react to the jump guard (which isn't all that odd a concept - many of us had someone do a sloppy version in a fight as a kid), that stance probably negates the takedown. That's a deduction, so based only on what I see in my head, rather than anything I've actually seen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.

I think jumping guard is a specific skill. If you know how to recognize the openings, it's a useful tool. I think those who used it in MMA probably mostly either were REALLY good at recognizing openings, or saw consistent openings in pre-fight analysis.

 

[Hanzou]

You do see jumping guard in old Japanese Jujutsu schools where the context is more self defence oriented & you're wearing a jacket

However, it's done differently from how we see it in BJJ. Rather than jumping up in order to pull your opponent down you:
- Jump up to attack with a leg squeeze (do jime in judo) and strike to the face pretty much simultaneously
- Immediately drop you upper body to facilitate a sweep
- Finish with an ankle lock and a kick to disentangle quickly

Whilst I think that this approach is better for the "street" & the surprise factor of this attack is huge, I'm with the others on this thread in that it's probably not a preferred stratagem in a self defence situation

I definitely agree that it isn't a preferred stratagem. Thanks for the historical context. That is very interesting. What's your view on jumping submissions like Jumping Triangle or Jumping Armbar?

 

[Hanzou]

I'd think it's a good answer for anyone with a strong guard game. Let me amend that, if your guard game is better (for your situation) than your standing game. As you say, it needs the presumption of a single opponent, but that's just part of the situation.

I hate the concept of jumping guard, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're good at it and the positions you're likely to progress to. I'd have to ask (and you probably know): what are the risks if jumping guard goes wrong? Failure mode (what happens if it doesn't work - how deep a hole have I dug for myself) is part of how I look at all MA techniques.

You'd better disengage and fall on your butt and enter into an open guard in order to sweep as quickly as possible. Conversely you could do a double ankle sweep depending on how you fall.

If you get slammed on a very hard surface, you're pretty screwed.

 

[dunc]

I definitely agree that it isn't a preferred stratagem. Thanks for the historical context. That is very interesting. What's your view on jumping submissions like Jumping Triangle or Jumping Armbar?

I haven't seen either of those in the older traditional jujutsu schools. So most likely they are more modern inventions

Similar to jumping guard they are really surprising attacks that pretty much end the fight if you pull them off. So whilst the risk may be quite high if you feel that the circumstances are good then maybe...

Generally I feel that the traditional arm bar leaves your head quite exposed to being used as a football - so probably the methods that avoid having your head on the floor are better for self defence
Triangles are a bit more protected from this I think

The issue with flying triangles is that you don't have the option to disrupt the body slam by striking his face backwards (as per the more traditional approach to jumping guard) so the risk of getting slammed if your opponent has good structure is probably too high to warrant it. This is less of an issue with flying arm bars I think

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

Ive used this effectively (only on mats), almost always against a larger opponent when my other throw countering techniques arent working quite well because they are so much larger than me and i know they they can just muscle me down. I would try avoiding this in real life, preferentially on softer surfaces, but if i know im going down i might chance it to take control of the situation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think jumping guard is a specific skill. If you know how to recognize the openings, it's a useful tool.

The concept is to

- glue yourself on your opponent's body, and
- take advantage on your own body weight.

Chinese wrestling use this concept too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The concept is to

- glue yourself on your opponent's body, and
- take advantage on your own body weight.

Chinese wrestling use this concept too.

I think most grappling arts have something that uses those same principles. Jumping guard does have an additional element of specifically setting up a guard position at the same time.