The issue with MMA community

[Mider]

I’m glad to see on the net and many places TMA are resurfacing as people adapt them to the modern world like Kali with the Dog Brothers or certain mma guys do wing Chun n Kung fu

 

[Alan0354]

Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.

Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.

That was ok, they did not know before. THE WORST is after that, they INSIST on keeping the traditional, refuse to modify, they still practice what was taught over 100 years ago hoping to have a different result. Maybe in US, people learn to be a little open minded. But in China( I can't speak for Japan and others), they honor tradition, they feel that is respect to the founder and absolutely refuse to change. Thereby, 30 years later, they still cannot get into the octagon as they have no chance to pass the elimination fights to get to big time. Instead they invalidate MMA, saying " I don't want to show because I don't want people to learn it", or " It's too deadly to use it" or " I am above all these and I have no interest to compete".

This is 2021, things work differently, MMA learn from other sports, film, analyze, figure a way to solve the puzzle rather being stubborn and start bad mouthing( very common in Hong Kong amount those so called "masters").

Please, go to youtube and look for Xu Ziaodung, that said it all. Instead of changing, they put a $20K price to anyone that can beat him. Government sanction him, make him paint his face before he can fight. Don't they ever learn? I am Chinese, I was from Hong Kong, I saw all the BS first hand. Look at how they castigated Bruce Lee because Lee combine the best of few styles and whoop their butts. You should listen all the bad mouthing and claimed they can beat Lee AFTER Lee died. I was there at the time and I heard all of it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.

Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.

That was ok, they did not know before. THE WORST is after that, they INSIST on keeping the traditional, refuse to modify, they still practice what was taught over 100 years ago hoping to have a different result. Maybe in US, people learn to be a little open minded. But in China( I can't speak for Japan and others), they honor tradition, they feel that is respect to the founder and absolutely refuse to change. Thereby, 30 years later, they still cannot get into the octagon as they have no chance to pass the elimination fights to get to big time. Instead they invalidate MMA, saying " I don't want to show because I don't want people to learn it", or " It's too deadly to use it" or " I am above all these and I have no interest to compete".

This is 2021, things work differently, MMA learn from other sports, film, analyze, figure a way to solve the puzzle rather being stubborn and start bad mouthing( very common in Hong Kong amount those so called "masters").

Please, go to youtube and look for Xu Ziaodung, that said it all. Instead of changing, they put a $20K price to anyone that can beat him. Government sanction him, make him paint his face before he can fight. Don't they ever learn? I am Chinese, I was from Hong Kong, I saw all the BS first hand. Look at how they castigated Bruce Lee because Lee combine the best of few styles and whoop their butts. You should listen all the bad mouthing and claimed they can beat Lee AFTER Lee died. I was there at the time and I heard all of it.

I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received. That is a real bummer.

 

[Alan0354]

I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received. That is a real bummer.

Nop, I chose the best at the time. It was 1984, I looked for one that was more modern, I found a Tae Kwon Do school that really taught kickboxing which is new at the time due to influence from Bruce Lee. We used boxing hands instead. We did not do forms until 2 weeks before belt test. Forms are USELESS and the teacher did not want to waste time on it. Instead, we held bags for each other and let the other person punch and kick to get use to the impact on the body. It was new at the time while all the other MA still doing those useless moves punching under the shoulder, big horse stand and all the useless moves.

I am just too old to learn MMA only, not that I had bad training. At least I can say most MMA KICKS are originated from Tae Kwon Do. At least I can say I learned a good system. Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA. How many Kung Fu can say that? Only one I saw so far is Wing Chun step kick to the knee. Not to mention I picked the school that taught boxing hands instead of the traditional Tae Kwon Do.

Time change, MMA replace kick boxing. If only Kung Fu have an open mind, open to change, one day, they might win in the octagon.



EDIT:

I almost forgot, I did got scammed, I was fooled into learning IRON PALM, fooled by the hype of all the "magic". 3 long years of practicing, I got NOTHING other than two carpal tunnels. That, I am very bitter.

The Tae Kwon Do class was by Lee Lawler of Lawler's Tae Kwon Do in Daly City. That was a good school. It was 1984, not only we moved beyond tradition forms and got into kick boxing with boxing hands, Mr. Lawler even invited a Jujitsu Instructor every other month over to teach arm bar, locks and all. This is 1984, we were laughing......why!!! Now we all know. Mr. Lawler is very forward thinking. Can most of the other masters say that?

I am teaching kick boxing to my grand daughter, I was looking up Lawler's Tae Kwon Do, apparently he retired since the pandemic, too bad, that would be a good place to start for her. Mr. Lawler must be close to 75 now.

 

[Unkogami]

....Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA.....

Or not.

 

[Alan0354]

Or not.

You know Tae Kwon Do? Kicks is about 1/3 of MMA today, other third is mostly boxing hands. Then 1/3 is JJ and wrestling. It's split pretty even.

Most kicks in MMA today are from Tae Kwon Do. We learned all those kicks in the class. You saw the UFC fights now, they even started using spin hook kicks to the head, hook kicks that I thought were not very practical at the time. The only kick that has nothing to do with Tae Kwon Do is the step kick to the knee, that actually is from Wing Chun which I learn for a little while.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that MMA was a quick and shallow method of development. The point I think you're referring to in the post you quoted appears to be more about the "other stuff" often contained in TMA.

There's stuff I teach and work on that is more about developing the body in ways that will make it more capable at 70 or 80 years old. And there are drills and exercises I include because people can continue to use them if they stop training with me, to keep their body healthier. There are even some things I do because it keeps the lightly-committed practicing and getting better and healthier.

Those things don't make much impact on fighting ability, so don't make much sense in the context of just training to fight. That's part of the "do" in my system. If you just took those things out, it'd be better suited to learning to fight (because you'd gain back that time for more combat-focused activity).

I don't think MMA not (normally) having that kind of focus makes it shallow. It just makes it more focused. That's its strength.

I see and MMA and those feeder arts don't do those things?

From the post I replied to.

"TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts.

It's totally fine to say that MMA is the quickest way to reach your goal of competing in a sportive environment, but it's a totally different one to argue that MMA is the one and only best way, and that it has more value than all other arts in all contexts. The first statement is honest and defensible; the second, I believe, is short sighted and a bit arrogant and possibly ignorant.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who continue to train, and see great value in both. I find I tend to learn the most from teachers like this. There are serious limitations, and selective forces at play with any competitive, sportive environment that people don't acknowledge nearly enough. There's a *lot* of very good stuff to learn outside of that context as well, and there are plenty of ways to pressure test it and make it functional too.

 

[drop bear]

I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received. That is a real bummer.

Don't be. He is better off having figured that out.

 

[Unkogami]

You know Tae Kwon Do? Kicks is about 1/3 of MMA today, .....

Every kick is NOT TKD.

 

[drop bear]

This is that binary thing I was talking about. There are many things I can do reliably (in the right situation) against someone untrained or poorly trained - including folks not trained for grappling or grappling defense - but which will not work against a trained MMA fighter. So there are things that don't work (or don't work often enough) in MMA that can actually come into play outside MMA. And that's without even considering the difference in intent or objective.

Yeah you have gone for this argument a few times. And honestly it is pretty silly.

Moves that work on a MMA guy also work on an untrained guy. And generally they work better.

Why would you learn moves that only work against guys that can't fight?

Apart from the joke value of pulling moves like that off on untrained guys.

 

[Alan0354]

Every kick is NOT TKD.

Mostly, we learn all those. Like I said, step kick is distinctly not Tae Kwon Do, that's Wing Chun.

Oh another one that cannot be claimed as TKD, foot stomping!!! That was brought on by Marco Ruhas( spelling) early in UFC. You see people occasionally using it.

 

[drop bear]

I think we're really close to saying the same thing. I agree with everything you've said. I'm simply trying to point out that talent is a uncontrollable variable, unless your goal is recruitment (i.e., my goal is to recruit top talent vs my goal is to refine my training model). If the latter, it's more useful (IMO) to presume that talent is an intangible trait, like athleticism, coordination, optimism, or resilience. You can improve these things over time, but they are traits, not skills. If the goal is to teach everyone skill regardless of their traits, then looking only at the best case scenarios can be misleading.

Yeah. Sort of. You can do both.

But the question is can average soccer mum who is middling ability in a MMA gym take on kung fu sifu from another gym?

And so when we are presenting the exceptional guys. Even if you fall short you may still be miles above everyone else.

Tony is a hobbiest, said that he is not naturally talented, probably won't have a professional MMA career. But in terms of talent. Probably miles better in application and knowledge than lot of systems who are selling similar outcomes.

The bar is set really low.

Or again we could look at Ramsay Dewey and Master Wong beef. Ramsey dewey isn't an exceptional MMA fighter. And there is very little doubt how that one would go.

 

[Trondyne]

Why would you learn moves that only work against guys that can't fight?

Apart from the joke value of pulling moves like that off on untrained guys.

I don't think this is what's going on, all due respect to those relating their experience....

Without writing a book on this... All those training in whatever form or art are at some level of skill... I think the person in question can pull a move off on some but not others not because one can't fight and the other is MMA it's because one person is better than he is.

Take an MMA person who has trained for 6 months and there will be a boatload of moves he won't be able to make work against guys training for 2 years.... That doesn't mean the move sucks, it means his attributes are not there yet and definitely not up to where the other person is....

 

[drop bear]

I don't think this is what's going on, all due respect to those relating their experience....

Without writing a book on this... All those training in whatever form or art are at some level of skill... I think the person in question can pull a move off on some but not others not because one can't fight and the other is MMA it's because one person is better than he is.

Take an MMA person who has trained for 6 months and there will be a boatload of moves he won't be able to make work against guys training for 2 years.... That doesn't mean the move sucks, it means his attributes are not there yet and definitely not up to where the other person is....

Yeah. You would think that was the case. But unfortunately it isn't.

We are talking moves that work because the opponent has made a bunch of fundamental mistakes.

Krav maga blitzing or blasting? Is a good example. And while it is a cornerstone defence for them if you ever watch krav guys spar you never see that move.

 

[Trondyne]

Yeah. You would think that was the case. But unfortunately it isn't.

We are talking moves that work because the opponent has made a bunch of fundamental mistakes.

Krav maga blitzing or blasting? Is a good example. And while it is a cornerstone defence for them if you ever watch krav guys spar you never see that move.

I'm not familiar with that move...

In the post what was said was that this person can use some move on low level people but not on higher level people (essentially)... I mean that speaks for itself.... If in fact the move can be done in an alive manner, like in sparring with persons A and B but not C, etc....

Now, if he can't really use that move on anyone because he meant like "in theory" that's a whole nother can-o-beans.... Some TMA folks don't spar.... They can't make this statement...

Then there are high % moves and lower % moves etc....

 

[Trondyne]

The bar is set really low.

Consider the challenge of selling martial arts classes to regular people... They want to learn how to fight really well without actually fighting, (many of them)... So you have them do part 1 and part 2 in a fighting class but leave out the alive resistance training and hope for the best... Low bar required...

Then everyone says, "See that system or TMA doesn't work..." lol

 

[drop bear]

Consider the challenge of selling martial arts classes to regular people... They want to learn how to fight really well without actually fighting, (many of them)... So you have them do part 1 and part 2 in a fighting class but leave out the alive resistance training and hope for the best... Low bar required...

Then everyone says, "See that system or TMA doesn't work..." lol

That system doesn't work.

Imagine selling weight loss to people who refuse to give up pizza.

Do you have them give up pizza? or do you have people just never loose weight?

Then they say their weight loss program doesn't work.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not familiar with that move...

In the post what was said was that this person can use some move on low level people but not on higher level people (essentially)... I mean that speaks for itself.... If in fact the move can be done in an alive manner, like in sparring with persons A and B but not C, etc....

Now, if he can't really use that move on anyone because he meant like "in theory" that's a whole nother can-o-beans.... Some TMA folks don't spar.... They can't make this statement...

Then there are high % moves and lower % moves etc....

Ok bursting.

It relies not only on the guy throwing a poor telegraphic punch but also throwing it at half speed.

As soon as you add real speed or a bit of randomness or tighten that punch in to a hook. You are basically out of luck.

Even an overhand which should be perfect for that punch, doesn't fit because they either come too fast, is thrown off the back of other punches or they move their head.

So it is a move trained specifically for a bad puncher.

But any sort of normal punch defence will work against a bad punch. You don't need a specific defense to terrible fighters.

Now you can learn it if you are slick and fighting gumbies and you are mocking them. But for any sort of serious self defence you just don't do it.

 

[Trondyne]

That system doesn't work.

Imagine selling weight loss to people who refuse to give up pizza.

Do you have them give up pizza? or do you have people just never loose weight?

Then they say their weight loss program doesn't work.

No it does... It gives those people a slight edge over those who don't drill, hit bags and so on....and it does it without fighting or sparring...

You said that "system" But what I'm talking about is blaming an Art because these schools are selling something that people want to buy... You can train many arts curriculum and not spar or fight. You could even do it with Judo, just leave out the randori...

Fighting is hard, dangerous and many regular people will not do it... they don't want to do it but want to drill moves, hit bags and learn something that will build some attributes... I mean this is real, whether you like it or not....

 

[Alan0354]

Why are we talking about technique against ordinary people that don't know anything? Anything you train is better than nothing!!! Even if you do weight training, it's better off than ones that don't because you can throw them around. That doesn't mean weight training is effective in beating people!!!

You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.

Also, I NEVER assume people don't know how to fight, I assume they do. How can you keep talking about facing someone that don't?!!! You might be in for a brutal awakening!!! Hell, I spent almost 3 years in TKD, 9 months in Judo and some Wing Chun, I have been keeping in shape for the last 30+ years not only on this, but weight training. If I look at people that don't know how to fight, of cause chances are I can whoop their butt regardless of their age and can be even a little bigger than me!!! BUT, I NEVER think like that. I learn to be humble, assuming everyone know and learn how to fight.

Hell, I can still out bench press, out bicep cure and out lift some young kids in the gym, BUT, I mainly looking at those that bench 225lbs or even 315lbs and bicep cure over 50lbs dumbbells. YOU COMPARE WITH THE STRONG, NOT WITH THE WEAK!!! Hell, I join a workmen's gym rather the yuppy gym. I've been to gyms that it's not common for men to bench press over 135lbs!!!! I do NOT want to go to those gyms to feel good!!! Hell, now I work out at home, I still do pushup with feet on the chain, wearing 60lbs weight jacket and do 5 sets of 22reps of pushups. AGAIN, I am 68!!!

Now I am working very hard on stick fight, I assume people know MA, this still gives me a distinct advantage over them as I have a cane.