The issue with MMA community

Mider

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I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.
 
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lklawson

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Steve

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I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.
Muay thay is lame. ;)
 

Steve

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Lol I meant Muay Thai
So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one. Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise. Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.

Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though. I mean, look at football (American or otherwise). Fans of a team are inherently irrational. They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams. And most of it is emotional fandom. But that's just the nature of it. People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle). But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.

The key, though, is don't take it seriously or personally. And remember that if someone uses ninjutsu or aikido successfully in MMA, it will make you dizzy how fast peoples' opinions will change. :)

For my part, I think training Aikido for MMA would be really good for Aikido.
 
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Mider

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So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one. Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise. Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.

Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though. I mean, look at football (American or otherwise). Fans of a team are inherently irrational. They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams. And most of it is emotional fandom. But that's just the nature of it. People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle). But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.

The key, though, is don't take it seriously or personally. And remember that if someone uses ninjutsu or aikido successfully in MMA, it will make you dizzy how fast peoples' opinions will change. :)

For my part, I think training Aikido for MMA would be really good for Aikido.
Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.

THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.

nah, they’ll just say it worked because the guy doing it made it work...I mean no duh lol.

I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.
 

Flying Crane

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Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.

THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.

nah, they’ll just say it worked because the guy doing it made it work...I mean no duh lol.

I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.
I will point out that it would not be unusual for a teacher to be able to beat all of his students. That is often what brings a student to a teacher in the first place: the perception that the teacher is better than they are, and they want to become good like the teacher.

What would be really telling is if someone became student to a teacher who they knew they could beat, and the teacher knew it as well. But if the student perceives that the teacher has a certain methodology or something that the student realizes would make an improvement in his own abilities, then the relative skill difference is immaterial, compared to the knowledge transfer. That knowledge is what matters.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.
I'd be surprised if that were true. It's not an efficient platform for training up to speed quickly, nor does it give an advantage over something like Judo or CCW, so the longer learning curve makes it a poor choice for competing against other styles.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.

THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.

nah, they’ll just say it worked because the guy doing it made it work...I mean no duh lol.

I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.
They guy that you were arguing with was not someone that trains MMA, just so you know. He's a CMA guy.
 
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Mider

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I will point out that it would not be unusual for a teacher to be able to beat all of his students. That is often what brings a student to a teacher in the first place: the perception that the teacher is better than they are, and they want to become good like the teacher.

What would be really telling is if someone became student to a teacher who they knew they could beat, and the teacher knew it as well. But if the student perceives that the teacher has a certain methodology or something that the student realizes would make an improvement in his own abilities, then the relative skill difference is immaterial, compared to the knowledge transfer. That knowledge is what matters.
They were his students because he beat them, many of his first generation students were in other arts and schools then joined him.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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You mean in the aikido thread? I just found him very close minded
The JKD thread, I think, not aikido. And I know little to nothing about bruce lee, just wanted to put that out there since you seemed to think that he was part of the mma crowd when that's not his background.
 
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Mider

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The JKD thread, I think, not aikido. And I know little to nothing about bruce lee, just wanted to put that out there since you seemed to think that he was part of the mma crowd when that's not his background.
a few people made the comment, I just think it’s weird they thought Lee didn’t have any fight experience, you can see interviews of Lee’s students and even their students on YouTube. Adam Chan is one of the best
 

Xue Sheng

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I'd be surprised if that were true. It's not an efficient platform for training up to speed quickly, nor does it give an advantage over something like Judo or CCW, so the longer learning curve makes it a poor choice for competing against other styles.

I talked with a couple MMA guys, a few years back, that trained Qigong and they were picking my brain about Taijiquan. Basically they will train anything that they think will help them win and qigong helped them relax. But with that said, I have not heard of any Aikido folks who were also MMA. A few were BJJ but no MMA
 

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Since the thread is about me, I thought I'd chime in (even though he called me a liar and a troll for pointing this out).

Here were my posts:

Yep, and not a single "student" of Bruce Lee ever competed or won anything on a large scale. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. trained WITH Bruce Lee and were already established martial artists when they met. Bruce Lee was NOT their instructor. Many people trained with each other and exchanged ideas back then, which was the case with Lewis and Norris. Bruce Lee exchanged ideas with Ed Parker and Gene LeBell, but no one over says that they were Bruce's teachers. It only seems to go the other way when someone came to Bruce to exchange ideas or learn something from him.

What we DO know is that the year after Bruce Lee died, Dan Inosanto took a JKD team to the IKC's (Ed Parker's huge tournament in CA) in 1974 to compete in the Team Black Belt division. Their first draw was to the BKF "B Team". Dan Inosanto's team lost 33-0, they didn't even score a SINGLE point. They never brought another team.

So what Judo Championship did Jesse Glover actually win? He won the Pacific Northwest Championship Brown Belt Division. Not to take away his achievement, but that is much different than competing in an open national championship tournament and claiming he was a national champion. I would also expect that a student who sparred in a striking match would be dominated by a striker in sparring based on striking.

To put it another way, when Gene LeBell sparred Bruce Lee and put Bruce in a headlock and then picked Bruce up in a fireman's carry and ran around with Bruce on his shoulders we would expect that because it was a grappling match and Bruce Lee was not a grappler. It was also what inspired Bruce to train with Gene for about 2 years because it was such a weakness in his approach.

What "boxing champions" did Bruce Lee teach long term? What championships did they win? James Demile claimed he was the Air Force HW boxing champ. But, there are no records of him competing and winning that title (All Air Force). Back then, he would have fought for the "All Service" Championship against the other branches. Most of those guys were Olympic quality or turned pro that competed at that level. Many years later when Demile was questioned, he talked about that most of his boxing matches were "smokers" against bums and that the other matches were between divisions in Anchorage Alaska. Demile even stated, "It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were not that good". So, he may have won something in Alaska, but again it wasn't a title like we are led to believe.

In the book, "The Tao of Bruce Lee", Joe Lewis told the author that "Bruce didn't spar anybody except for the guys who sucked up to him."


My point is/was, if you want to say someone is a great fighter then there needs to be some type of measurement to it, which is judged by competitions or documented fights with other fighters. If you want to say that Bruce Lee helped coach other martial artists and helped them with his concepts/ideas, I have no problem with that.

I don't think anyone would argue that Angelo Dundee and Cus D'Amato were amazing boxing coaches, but you would have never called them fighters.
 

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