The issue with MMA community

[drop bear]

Yup, but alan's argument was around why aren't specific people proving themselves in the ring to bring fame to their style. Which isn't everyone's goal. For the people who's goal it is, then alan's questions are legitimate.

Almost by definition the people having issues with the MMA community dismissing their style. Are concerned about their styles fame.

Otherwise being dismissed by the MMA community doesn't factor in.

 

[Steve]

You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.

I don't think I understand. Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?

 

[drop bear]

That's kind of what the statement you quoted says. I would like to find a complete beginner with whom to do this.

A white belt bjj competition is easy to enter. But they are still functional grapplers.

 

[drop bear]

Not necessarily. It depends on how much they focus on that problem. If the art with 10mil is filled with people that believe in no-touch-jutsu, or have a standardized sparring set that's crap, while the art with 1thousand spends all their time training actually fighting, and cross-competes, while the cream of their crop might be worse than the cream-of-the-crop from the other style, in generality it might be a better style for fighting.

Yeah but this isn't a riddle. It isn't where I suddenly reveal the ten million strong style are really cats or something.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't think I understand. Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?

I just looked it up and 3.6 million people train MMA apparently, however accurate you want to take that result.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't think I understand. Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?

I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.

I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.

• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more exceptional individuals you will find and the more remarkable the top individuals will be. The best guy out of a million is generally going to be better than the best guy out of a thousand.
• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah but this isn't a riddle. It isn't where I suddenly reveal the ten million strong style are really cats or something.

But there are styles that have millions of people that are not as effective as styles with less people. Based on quick google searches, and without specifying styles to avoid art bashing, there's a style that has ~10 million "black belts", and ~70 million people overall, per google, that as a whole is much less effective than MMA with 3.6 million people, or the 3 million that do BJJ.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.

I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.

• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more exceptional individuals you will find and the more remarkable the top individuals will be. The best guy out of a million is generally going to be better than the best guy out of a thousand.
• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.

For the record- @drop bear if that second point is the point you are trying to make, then I absolutely agree with it. I just think that there are restrictions that come from some arts being faulty, yet still having those supreme individuals that will make it work against others with better training methodologies.

 

[drop bear]

I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.

I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.

• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more exceptional individuals you will find and the more remarkable the top individuals will be. The best guy out of a million is generally going to be better than the best guy out of a thousand.
• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.

Sort of. We can look at Australia with 20 million people and then the other powerhouse ufc nations. And still have produced a couple of title belts.

So it is still achievable with less guys.

 

[drop bear]

But there are styles that have millions of people that are not as effective as styles with less people. Based on quick google searches, and without specifying styles to avoid art bashing, there's a style that has ~10 million "black belts", and ~70 million people overall, per google, that as a whole is much less effective than MMA with 3.6 million people, or the 3 million that do BJJ.

That is because the system matters.

 

[Steve]

I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.

I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.

• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more exceptional individuals you will find and the more remarkable the top individuals will be. The best guy out of a million is generally going to be better than the best guy out of a thousand.
• The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.

Okay. There's a certain logic to that, but I really think the training model creates the talent pool. If you had 1000 people training in wrestling for 10 years, how many of those 1000 people would be competent? We can define "competent" if you like, but I don't have in mind an elite athlete. Someone who can reliably use their skillset inside and outside of the sport. I'd say, if they're all training for 10 years, pretty close to 1000.

If you have 10 million people training in whatever people are envisioning as the "anti-mma" of the day is, how many people would be competent after 10 years? Only the most talented?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay. There's a certain logic to that, but I really think the training model creates the talent pool. If you had 1000 people training in wrestling for 10 years, how many of those 1000 people would be competent? We can define "competent" if you like, but I don't have in mind an elite athlete. Someone who can reliably use their skillset inside and outside of the sport. I'd say, if they're all training for 10 years, pretty close to 1000.

If you have 10 million people training in whatever people are envisioning as the "anti-mma" of the day is, how many people would be competent after 10 years? Only the most talented?

To clarify my point, a deep talent pool in a given community will produce remarkable individuals and a higher average practitioner in whatever activity that community is actually practicing. If that deep talent pool is a group of people who spend their time punching each other in the face while trying not to get punched themselves, then they’ll probably have a lot of people who are good at that. If the talent pool is people who are doing acrobatic exhibition, then they’ll have a bunch of people who can do amazing flips and stunts. It’s only a talent pool for things you are actually doing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.

I thought I’d add a bit to my own point here. The “sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve” is really key, in two ways.

First, suppose you have a system, “Secret Master Death Touch Do”, which has a million practitioners around the world. However each individual dojo instructor makes his students take a vow of secrecy and loyalty so that they are not allowed to visit other schools or share knowledge with other students of SMDTD. Even if the basic techniques and practice methods of the art are sound, you probably won’t get a lot of outstanding practitioners.

Secondly, suppose you have another art, a rare form of historical wrestling passed down by one family living in Portugal, taught in a school with only 20 students. Now suppose the students of that art decide to go out and compete in Judo and Sambo and Freestyle wrestling tournaments. They watch BJJ instructional videos and Sumo tournaments and talk shop with friends who are catch wrestlers. I’d argue that even if this art only has 20 practitioners, those practitioners are now part of a larger grappling community that encompasses tens of millions of people and they will reap the benefits accordingly.

 

[Trondyne]

I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.

Of course... Those arts are what make up today's MMA community.... If you want to redefine MMA to actually mean any arts then by all means....

Personally I think it's unfortunate that there is such a huge bias against traditional arts... I think all people interested in actual combative arts should be excited to bring in more, not less arts.... If anyone can fight with whatever art then let's welcome them.... There are absolutely things useful in almost all martial arts, the more the better. The more biased people are the more will be lost instead of found...

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.

Mma, mutilated martial arts. Is a system of taking stuff that works in a game of close the gap, establish grips take down establish a dominant position and a great submission. You can bypass at any step to any other. This is called being well rounded fighter. Whatever style you do you should strive for the same game. Kinda the end of conversation some arts it just takes longer to understand than others.

 

[Flying Crane]

Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?

You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.

Ok so, this is all nonsense.

here is what I understand about you, based on your own posts: you are embittered because you perceive that you received poor training when you were younger, and now you feel you are too old to make changes. The training you got some decades ago failed to prepare you to step into an MMA ring now, at your age.

Those are your issues that you can deal with, or not. They are not my issues. Attempting to project your bitterness and perceived failures does not make them my problems. I am happy to train as I do; and get this: I have no interest in fighting for fun and entertainment. I realize that may be difficult for you and some others to grasp. Why would someone like me choose to spend a significant portion of his life training in the martial arts, and not want to fight? I can’t explain it to you. If you can’t understand it, that is your loss, not mine.

And get this, while I don’t think much about fighting, and pay zero attention to MMA competitions, I still see combative value in what I do. I actually do not live in fear that my training will fail me in any reasonably likely scenario where I might need to defend myself.

I am sorry that you apparently feel like a failure. I do not feel that way about myself. Do what you need to do, to cope with it. Or don’t. But when you project this onto others, you are entering a world in which you know nothing.

 

[Alan0354]

Ok so, this is all nonsense.

here is what I understand about you, based on your own posts: you are embittered because you perceive that you received poor training when you were younger, and now you feel you are too old to make changes. The training you got some decades ago failed to prepare you to step into an MMA ring now, at your age.

Those are your issues that you can deal with, or not. They are not my issues. Attempting to project your bitterness and perceived failures does not make them my problems. I am happy to train as I do; and get this: I have no interest in fighting for fun and entertainment. I realize that may be difficult for you and some others to grasp. Why would someone like me choose to spend a significant portion of his life training in the martial arts, and not want to fight? I can’t explain it to you. If you can’t understand it, that is your loss, not mine.

And get this, while I don’t think much about fighting, and pay zero attention to MMA competitions, I still see combative value in what I do. I actually do not live in fear that my training will fail me in any reasonably likely scenario where I might need to defend myself.

I am sorry that you apparently feel like a failure. I do not feel that way about myself. Do what you need to do, to cope with it. Or don’t. But when you project this onto others, you are entering a world in which you know nothing.

I guess I am wasting my breath.

Actually I had good training at the time, the world moved on since MMA. I can see how much better is MMA. I am not blind and admit what I learn is over, I am not stubborn blindly defending what I learn.

Maybe you are right, if I just said Tae Kwon Do is the BEST, I am not interested to prove it, I just want to keep practicing, I would be happier. I think we should stop talking to each other. Goodbye.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I am wasting my breath.

Actually I had good training at the time, the world moved on since MMA. I can see how much better is MMA.

If that works for you, enjoy.

 

[Argus]

I think that this thread, and some of the attitudes here, shows what is wrong with *some* of the attitudes around MMA.

The best MMA guys I've met are also some of the best TMA guys I've met, and vice versa. TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts. Sometimes, depending on the TMA and the teacher, it's just up to you to make it functional under pressure. Other times, it's functional right out of the box. Most of the time, it's functional once you understand the context and where it fits in within the approach of the system that you train, and the context that you are testing it out in (which is sometimes appropriate for sportive environments, and sometimes not so appropriate for them).

It's totally fine to say that MMA is the quickest way to reach your goal of competing in a sportive environment, but it's a totally different one to argue that MMA is the one and only best way, and that it has more value than all other arts in all contexts. The first statement is honest and defensible; the second, I believe, is short sighted and a bit arrogant and possibly ignorant.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who continue to train, and see great value in both. I find I tend to learn the most from teachers like this. There are serious limitations, and selective forces at play with any competitive, sportive environment that people don't acknowledge nearly enough. There's a *lot* of very good stuff to learn outside of that context as well, and there are plenty of ways to pressure test it and make it functional too.

 

[drop bear]

I think that this thread, and some of the attitudes here, shows what is wrong with *some* of the attitudes around MMA.

The best MMA guys I've met are also some of the best TMA guys I've met, and vice versa. TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts. Sometimes, depending on the TMA and the teacher, it's just up to you to make it functional under pressure. Other times, it's functional right out of the box. Most of the time, it's functional once you understand the context and where it fits in within the approach of the system that you train, and the context that you are testing it out in (which is sometimes appropriate for sportive environments, and sometimes not so appropriate for them).

It's totally fine to say that MMA is the quickest way to reach your goal of competing in a sportive environment, but it's a totally different one to argue that MMA is the one and only best way, and that it has more value than all other arts in all contexts. The first statement is honest and defensible; the second, I believe, is short sighted and a bit arrogant and possibly ignorant.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who continue to train, and see great value in both. I find I tend to learn the most from teachers like this. There are serious limitations, and selective forces at play with any competitive, sportive environment that people don't acknowledge nearly enough. There's a *lot* of very good stuff to learn outside of that context as well, and there are plenty of ways to pressure test it and make it functional too.

There is kind of a shifting of goal posts that seems a common reaction.

The issue is I don't know if any of the goal post shifting is really viable.

So there are MMA fighters that are legitimately good martial artists. Not even the top tier guys. But the average guys. Who are out on the mats all the time being better at martial arts than everyone in the room.

Then you get the pro fighters who smoke those guys.

Then the champion fighters who smoke those guys.

Then the best of them make it in to the UFC and get smoked in the preliminary you generally don't even see.

The best of them make the under card.

And the best of them get a title belt.

It is not a quick process that lacks depth or understanding. They are just that good.

This seems like a really hard concept for non MMA guys to accept. And it is strange because learning you are not as good as you think you are is one of the first techniques you learn in a combat sport.

Holding on to this idea that you have this extra depth or forbidden techniques if you can't seem to demonstrate that is just an attempt to hold on to an ego that doesn't help you develop.

You are steven segal trying to coach Anderson Silva.

It winds up just being cringy.

Otherwise go out on to a mat and stop some guy with your amazing concepts or specialist knowledge.