The issue with MMA community

[Trondyne]

I'm not someplace where I can watch a video. Can you give me a bullet-point synopsis of which elements you're referring to?

Not at the moment... What's the problem watching the video? I am happy to give you a link or we can wait until you are somewhere where you can watch it... Tony's stuff is worth the wait...

 

[Steve]

Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...

I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.

I'm not even sure that the best UFC fighter in the world would necessarily win against an average practitioner of a given weapons based system if you give him a weapon. Sure, he may have a physical advantage and good reflexes, but he has absolutely zero experience, knowledge, and muscle memory.

Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
3. Deal with multiple opponents
4. Handle both trained and untrained opponents who are much larger than you, and who behave very differently than they do in the ring.
5. Handle a variety of weapons, including sticks, knives, swords, or even firearms?
6. Deal with an attacker who may be wielding any of the above variety of weapons.
7. Make most efficient use of bodymechanics and techniques given the very big changes that subtle differences make when wearing clothes, shoes, lack of training gear, and the potential for weapons, multiple opponents, and all other factors mentioned here? People really under estimate how much of a difference small things make. *Really*

I'd also argue that the way people behave in a non sportive combat environment is very different. Committed, unskilled attacks are not always as easy to defend from as people think, and always practicing against uncommitted, skilled opponents sort of robs you of learning what you can do in response to them. Ending a fight is all about efficiency, and taking advantage openings that your opponent gives you while not getting hit, stabbed, or cut yourself. If you don't train versus a wide range of attacks at various distances and with all sorts of implements, your performance will be suboptimal for the situation.

My argument is a case for being unspecialized. Competitive fighters must specialize highly. On the other hand, people with a more general approach to preparedness and combat must specifically avoid specializing and adopt a general approach that can deal with a much broader spectrum of threats.

Let me just give you a very tiny example of how specialization hurts: In Filipino Martial Arts, most people train with a light weight rattan stick of exactly 28 inches. However, the moment you pick up a fighting weight stick twice the weight, or a stick that is a little longer or shorter, or indeed a blade or machete, things become extremely awkward if you haven't handled that specific length, weight, and shape or nature (blade versus impact) weapon before, and the nature of what you can and can't do with each one changes a lot more than you would think. If you always train with that one implement of a certain size and weight, I'm sure you can compete well in a stick fighting match. But you will be far less effective when wielding anything other than that 28 inch light weight rattan stick that you spend all your time training with.

Then, there's the nature of the sportive context in which you test your skills. Some people treat the stick as a stick. Some treat it as a blade. Others seem to totally ignore what would be, without protective equipment, lethal shots to the head and rush in for to grapple or take down, which I can't really understand. Decided norms around competition hugely affect how you test your art, and who would come out on top if you were competing.

That's just an example of minor differences, and applies across the board to things like wearing or not wearing gloves, etc.

Then there are things you simply don't train for at all if your focus is purely on competition, such as multiple attackers, hitting with your bare hands, dealing with weapons, multiple attackers, concrete, and all sorts of uncertainties which do not just change what you do a little bit, but completely.

I just watched a video of two trained, very competent sports fighters get into a street fight with a larger group of random people. They did really good, until one of the random guys picked up part a large piece of construction lumber laying around, and swung at one of them. Not knowing what to do, his natural, trained reaction was to back off and try to get out of range, and he wound up getting hit squarely in the head, knocked to the ground unconscious, and stomped on. You can say all you want that "oh, I know better than to do that" and "I can deal with X or Y" but until you've trained to do so and have ingrained and make it second nature, you had better think twice about whether or not you can, indeed, do what you say you can.

Well, setting aside the fixation on the UFC, I think your points about being "unspecialized" are on point. To be clear, I think focusing on the UFC (or any apex level of an art) is missing the point. The focus should be on the middle 50% or so, people who train but aren't elite athletes. What can they do?

But when you talk about someone who can do other things, I totally agree. A person who trains and competes in MMA, and also regularly attends the Dog Brothers gatherings will be more capable than someone who only trains in MMA. And so on.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.

Depending on the form and how you do it, it can be good stamina training as well, or a good way to get in the right mindset if you've got a temper.

I had one form I used to do in fencing competitions if I was losing my matches and noticing my mindset was off. Looked weird as hell doing a form between matches I'm sure, but it helped.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depending on the form and how you do it, it can be good stamina training as well, or a good way to get in the right mindset if you've got a temper.

I had one form I used to do in fencing competitions if I was losing my matches and noticing my mindset was off. Looked weird as hell doing a form between matches I'm sure, but it helped.

I realize this is way off topic, but the thought came to my mind so wanted to add it.

 

[shaunkwondo]

Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?

Heck yeah!! Best art out there is Mai Tai Kwon Do! I'm a great grandmaster, lol!!

 

[shaunkwondo]

So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one. Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise. Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.

Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though. I mean, look at football (American or otherwise). Fans of a team are inherently irrational. They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams. And most of it is emotional fandom. But that's just the nature of it. People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle). But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.

The key, though, is don't take it seriously or personally. And remember that if someone uses ninjutsu or aikido successfully in MMA, it will make you dizzy how fast peoples' opinions will change.

For my part, I think training Aikido for MMA would be really good for Aikido.

Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!

 

[Steve]

Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!

First Seahawks game I ever attended in the Kingdome happened to be their first playoff game in franchise history. Wild card game in 1983 against the Denver Broncos. They won that game, and then went to Miami to face Dan Marino and the Dolphins. No one gave them a chance in hell to win that game, but Dan Marino, in Marino fashion, choked in the big game and the Seahawks won. So exciting.

Of course, then the Raiders just killed the Seahawks and went on to win Superbowl XVIII over the Redskins.

 

[shaunkwondo]

First Seahawks game I ever attended in the Kingdome happened to be their first playoff game in franchise history. Wild card game in 1983 against the Denver Broncos. They won that game, and then went to Miami to face Dan Marino and the Dolphins. No one gave them a chance in hell to win that game, but Dan Marino, in Marino fashion, choked in the big game and the Seahawks won. So exciting.

Of course, then the Raiders just killed the Seahawks and went on to win Superbowl XVIII over the Redskins.

I don't like you Steve. I'm sorry, we can't be friends. 😆

 

[drop bear]

Except that that's not the message I hear a lot from the anti-TMA crowd. I hear a lot of "forms don't teach fighting" and such, claiming those things are a waste of time.

Because the TMA crowd use them wrong. So when the TMA crowd try to bend reality to make a piece of form fit. They are wasting their time.

Mabye saying its just a movement drill. Not a technique drill from time to time might clear that up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because the TMA crowd use them wrong. So when the TMA crowd try to bend reality to make a piece of form fit. They are wasting their time.

Mabye saying its just a movement drill. Not a technique drill from time to time might clear that up.

I'd say that's true of some in the TMA world, from what I've seen. And some of what seems to be trying to make a form fit is really just an intellectual pursuit. There are things I love to poke around with in my base art just for the interest in tinkering (not caring about any application or realism). I suspect there's a bit of that in other arts, too.

Personally, I like them (even the quite classical ones I've seen folks practice very seriously) as movement drills that reinforce the kinds of movements used in training. I think they are quite nice for that, and give students something they can do solo that focuses them on balance and form.

 

[drop bear]

I'd say that's true of some in the TMA world, from what I've seen. And some of what seems to be trying to make a form fit is really just an intellectual pursuit. There are things I love to poke around with in my base art just for the interest in tinkering (not caring about any application or realism). I suspect there's a bit of that in other arts, too.

Personally, I like them (even the quite classical ones I've seen folks practice very seriously) as movement drills that reinforce the kinds of movements used in training. I think they are quite nice for that, and give students something they can do solo that focuses them on balance and form.

The thing is. If it is a movement drill then the XMA guys are probably doing the most effective versions of forms.

Because if you can do this. Then you are achieving the sort of explosive body control needed to fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is. If it is a movement drill then the XMA guys are probably doing the most effective versions of forms.

If you want the form to encourage gymnastic movement or high levels of fitness, I'd agree. If you want it to encourage the kind of movement related to the tactics and strategy of a MA system and general range of motion, etc., probably not.

I encourage students to use forms to figure out where their bodies are before class. Folks I teach are typically office workers or drive a lot, so finding out where they are tense, sore, etc. helps keep them from injuring themselves in class. That's not a purpose a gymnastic form serves as well.

 

[drop bear]

If you want the form to encourage gymnastic movement or high levels of fitness, I'd agree. If you want it to encourage the kind of movement related to the tactics and strategy of a MA system and general range of motion, etc., probably not.

I encourage students to use forms to figure out where their bodies are before class. Folks I teach are typically office workers or drive a lot, so finding out where they are tense, sore, etc. helps keep them from injuring themselves in class. That's not a purpose a gymnastic form serves as well.

Depends how you want to fight.

If your body is called on to do this for example.

Then some sort of back of house is needed to achieve that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends how you want to fight.

If your body is called on to do this for example.

Then some sort of back of house is needed to achieve that.

Agreed. But the high flipping kicks seen in some XMA stuff (which I'd love to be able to do if I could go back to when my legs were strong enough) don't really apply. So a form designed around the kind of movement to be used would be better.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. But the high flipping kicks seen in some XMA stuff (which I'd love to be able to do if I could go back to when my legs were strong enough) don't really apply. So a form designed around the kind of movement to be used would be better.

Sort of and not sort of. Back to 2+2=4

So you train elements that are required to do a back flip for example which become structural building blocks to perform other movements.

So you do all this gymnastics and then take pieces of gymnastics and put them together in different ways to fight.

And the reason you do the back flip is because you can't fake it or cheat on the details because you will land on your head.

Which is the same argument for MMA in a adaptive approach. So sayyou wrestle and you have to stand up and disengage you are forced to use good wrestling mechanics to do that.

This then benefits your stand up and disengage when someone has pulled a gun on you or ninjas have dropped out of the shadows.

 

[Buka]

Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!

Rogers can throw unlike anybody I've ever seen, but Wilson is the better quarterback. Rogers is a diva who only cares about Rogers.

Remember that game where the Seahawks scored 15 points in the last two minutes to slap the Packers?

That's my favorite football game of all time. And I'm from New England.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sort of and not sort of. Back to 2+2=4

So you train elements that are required to do a back flip for example which become structural building blocks to perform other movements.

So you do all this gymnastics and then take pieces of gymnastics and put them together in different ways to fight.

And the reason you do the back flip is because you can't fake it or cheat on the details because you will land on your head.

Which is the same argument for MMA in a adaptive approach. So sayyou wrestle and you have to stand up and disengage you are forced to use good wrestling mechanics to do that.

This then benefits your stand up and disengage when someone has pulled a gun on you or ninjas have dropped out of the shadows.

That's an argument for the flipping movement being useful, but I don't think it's an argument for the flipping kick movement, which would involve different mechanics. And then there's the question of whether in a given system those flips are what you want folks to focus on in their basic movement exercises. While gymnastics would benefit folks doing what I teach, most folks are much better served by fundamental movement work.

So XMA-style forms might be useful to a few. To larger groups, they'd likely be a barrier, or at least a distraction from fundamentals.

 

[Steve]

That's an argument for the flipping movement being useful, but I don't think it's an argument for the flipping kick movement, which would involve different mechanics. And then there's the question of whether in a given system those flips are what you want folks to focus on in their basic movement exercises. While gymnastics would benefit folks doing what I teach, most folks are much better served by fundamental movement work.

So XMA-style forms might be useful to a few. To larger groups, they'd likely be a barrier, or at least a distraction from fundamentals.

I’m not seeing how it’s a barrier or distraction. Can you spell that out for me?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m not seeing how it’s a barrier or distraction. Can you spell that out for me?

For someone who can't do flips (not athletic enough) and doesn't know whether they can learn to (or know they can't), it becomes a pereived barrier.

And since doing a flip kick isn't really anything fundamental to fighting, the time spent on it (it would require quite bit of work and focus for most folks) is time away from fundamentals. It'd be like taking a gymnastics class once a week to get better at BJJ: it would probably help marginally, but putting that same time into additional BJJ training would be much more effective.

 

[brian k]

I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.

Mider,