The issue with MMA community

[drop bear]

No it does... It gives those people a slight edge over those who don't drill, hit bags and so on....and it does it without fighting or sparring...

You said that "system" But what I'm talking about is blaming an Art because these schools are selling something that people want to buy... You can train many arts curriculum and not spar or fight. You could even do it with Judo, just leave out the randori...

Fighting is hard, dangerous and many regular people will not do it... they don't want to do it but want to drill moves, hit bags and learn something that will build some attributes... I mean this is real, whether you like it or not....

Yeah.

Correct.

If people want to buy junk they are idiots. If people sell that junk they are unethical.

 

[Trondyne]

Ok bursting.

It relies not only on the guy throwing a poor telegraphic punch but also throwing it at half speed.

As soon as you add real speed or a bit of randomness or tighten that punch in to a hook. You are basically out of luck.

Even an overhand which should be perfect for that punch, doesn't fit because they either come too fast, is thrown off the back of other punches or they move their head.

So it is a move trained specifically for a bad puncher.

But any sort of normal punch defence will work against a bad punch. You don't need a specific defense to terrible fighters.

Now you can learn it if you are slick and fighting gumbies and you are mocking them. But for any sort of serious self defence you just don't do it.

Ok yes that move is probably not a real move...

How to know? Have someone show how they can use it in sparring against a resisting person.... If they can then I'd say it's real, if not then I'd say it's BS... I call people out all the time for showing some moves when they know what attack is coming, that's not sparring or fighting it's called a drill and when you know what's coming you can do anything....

 

[Trondyne]

You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.

How could you in any reasonable way be serious about that position? This is a rush to judgement without understanding the problem....

There's nothing about those fights that is an incitement of an art or style... Those guys went down because they had no experience fighting grapplers... LOL That's is all... A great boxer would also have went down and it's no indictment of boxing....

 

[drop bear]

Ok yes that move is probably not a real move...

How to know? Have someone show how they can use it in sparring against a resisting person.... If they can then I'd say it's real, if not then I'd say it's BS... I call people out all the time for showing some moves when they know what attack is coming, that's not sparring or fighting it's called a drill and when you know what's coming you can do anything....

Yeah the drills need to come from live training experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see and MMA and those feeder arts don't do those things?

The MMA folks I've talked to and played with only ever mentioned drills focused on the skills for direct application. It's possible some MMA places add in exercises that don't have efficient translation to fighting skill and things designed to be used if you stop training - I've just never heard anyone mention them.

 

[drop bear]

The MMA folks I've talked to and played with only ever mentioned drills focused on the skills for direct application. It's possible some MMA places add in exercises that don't have efficient translation to fighting skill and things designed to be used if you stop training - I've just never heard anyone mention them.

Yoga for BJJ: More flexibility, less injuries in Jiu-jitsu

Sign up for our free 7-day trial and see yourself how Yoga for BJJ help you achieve greater flexibility and avoid injuries on the mat

yogaforbjj.net

Alzheimer's and Dementia Support Services Packs a Punch! - Alzheimer's and Dementia Support Services

On Tuesday 22nd January we held a fun taster of Boxing for Dementia, all thanks to funding by the Partiger Trust which we are using to look at activities to offer people living with dementia. Sarah Taylor arranged the session with Olympia Boxing CIC who are a group founded on the back of the...

www.alz-dem.org

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah you have gone for this argument a few times. And honestly it is pretty silly.

Moves that work on a MMA guy also work on an untrained guy. And generally they work better.

Why would you learn moves that only work against guys that can't fight?

Apart from the joke value of pulling moves like that off on untrained guys.

I feel like you're arguing against a stance I haven't taken. Yes, stuff that works against a trained fighter will work elsewhere.

Why learn things that aren't likely to work against someone who's highly trained? A few reasons. Firstly, I doubt I'll ever need to deal with someone who's highly trained. If I do, and they are currently in serious training, I'll be in trouble, regardless, since I'm not in heavy training. Secondly, some of this stuff is just fun to play with. As long as I find it has some reasonable application, I'm happy with it.

 

[drop bear]

I feel like you're arguing against a stance I haven't taken. Yes, stuff that works against a trained fighter will work elsewhere.

Why learn things that aren't likely to work against someone who's highly trained? A few reasons. Firstly, I doubt I'll ever need to deal with someone who's highly trained. If I do, and they are currently in serious training, I'll be in trouble, regardless, since I'm not in heavy training. Secondly, some of this stuff is just fun to play with. As long as I find it has some reasonable application, I'm happy with it.

No.

If you get in to a self defense fight you need high percentage techniques. This will improve your chances regardless as to their skill level. There is no "well I will probably fight an untrained guy"

Otherwise learn any old thing you want for fun.

Getting those two ideas confused will hurt you at some point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yoga for BJJ: More flexibility, less injuries in Jiu-jitsu

Sign up for our free 7-day trial and see yourself how Yoga for BJJ help you achieve greater flexibility and avoid injuries on the mat

yogaforbjj.net

Alzheimer's and Dementia Support Services Packs a Punch! - Alzheimer's and Dementia Support Services

On Tuesday 22nd January we held a fun taster of Boxing for Dementia, all thanks to funding by the Partiger Trust which we are using to look at activities to offer people living with dementia. Sarah Taylor arranged the session with Olympia Boxing CIC who are a group founded on the back of the...

www.alz-dem.org

That's very cool. Again, this seems to be unusual within MMA. That may simply be my perception. If it is, I'm confused by some of the complaints I've heard MMA folks put forth about TMA - forms and other exercises not being effective for teaching fighting.

 

[Alan0354]

How could you in any reasonable way be serious about that position? This is a rush to judgement without understanding the problem....

There's nothing about those fights that is an incitement of an art or style... Those guys went down because they had no experience fighting grapplers... LOL That's is all... A great boxer would also have went down and it's no indictment of boxing....

So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.

That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years. I watch a lot of UFC, just by the way they fight, I can even tell how old is the fight because they CONSTANTLY changing and improving.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No.

If you get in to a self defense fight you need high percentage techniques. This will improve your chances regardless as to their skill level. There is no "well I will probably fight an untrained guy"

Otherwise learn any old thing you want for fun.

Getting those two ideas confused will hurt you at some point.

You make this argument a lot. If the training teaches how to recognize the opportunity, then having edge-case techniques isn't a problem. If the opportunity never comes up, then no big deal. You just go back to the foundational stuff that is available more often. Including some esoteric bits doesn't preclude having good foundational material.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.

That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years.

Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nop, I chose the best at the time. It was 1984, I looked for one that was more modern, I found a Tae Kwon Do school that really taught kickboxing which is new at the time due to influence from Bruce Lee. We used boxing hands instead. We did not do forms until 2 weeks before belt test. Forms are USELESS and the teacher did not want to waste time on it. Instead, we held bags for each other and let the other person punch and kick to get use to the impact on the body. It was new at the time while all the other MA still doing those useless moves punching under the shoulder, big horse stand and all the useless moves.

I am just too old to learn MMA only, not that I had bad training. At least I can say most MMA KICKS are originated from Tae Kwon Do. At least I can say I learned a good system. Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA. How many Kung Fu can say that? Only one I saw so far is Wing Chun step kick to the knee. Not to mention I picked the school that taught boxing hands instead of the traditional Tae Kwon Do.

Time change, MMA replace kick boxing. If only Kung Fu have an open mind, open to change, one day, they might win in the octagon.



EDIT:

I almost forgot, I did got scammed, I was fooled into learning IRON PALM, fooled by the hype of all the "magic". 3 long years of practicing, I got NOTHING other than two carpal tunnels. That, I am very bitter.

The Tae Kwon Do class was by Lee Lawler of Lawler's Tae Kwon Do in Daly City. That was a good school. It was 1984, not only we moved beyond tradition forms and got into kick boxing with boxing hands, Mr. Lawler even invited a Jujitsu Instructor every other month over to teach arm bar, locks and all. This is 1984, we were laughing......why!!! Now we all know. Mr. Lawler is very forward thinking. Can most of the other masters say that?

I am teaching kick boxing to my grand daughter, I was looking up Lawler's Tae Kwon Do, apparently he retired since the pandemic, too bad, that would be a good place to start for her. Mr. Lawler must be close to 75 now.

well look at that: I began training in 1984 too. Looks like we have something in common after all.

I've experienced some less-than-optimal training as well, along the way. I moved on and found something else that I felt was better. That's how its done.

With all due respect, you spend three years training TKD some decades ago, and another few months with some other things. That is not a lot of instruction. I have no problem with your enthusiasm for MMA. De gustibus non disputandum est. If you like it, nobody can dispute that. It's just that MMA isn't the venue or the approach for everyone. Anyone who likes it should pursue it, watch it, as much as they want. There is nothing wrong with that.

But I think your relativly short round of actual instruction may be clouding your view. You see MMA as the answer to it all. Maybe for you it is. But you are unable to recognize that it simply isn't, for others.

I dunno what to tell you. I think you have some issues to work out.

 

[drop bear]

That's very cool. Again, this seems to be unusual within MMA. That may simply be my perception. If it is, I'm confused by some of the complaints I've heard MMA folks put forth about TMA - forms and other exercises not being effective for teaching fighting.

Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.

 

[drop bear]

well look at that: I began training in 1984 too. Looks like we have something in common after all.

I've experienced some less-than-optimal training as well, along the way. I moved on and found something else that I felt was better. That's how its done.

With all due respect, you spend three years training TKD some decades ago, and another few months with some other things. That is not a lot of instruction. I have no problem with your enthusiasm for MMA. De gustibus non disputandem est. If you like it, nobody can dispute that. It's just that MMA isn't the venue or the approach for everyone. Anyone who likes it should pursue it, watch it, as much as they want. There is nothing wrong with that.

But I think your relativly short round of actual instruction may be clouding your view. You see MMA as the answer to it all. Maybe for you it is. But you are unable to recognize that it simply isn't, for others.

I dunno what to tell you. I think you have some issues to work out.

Present a functional alternative.

Which is the element that is sorely lacking in this discussion.

Something that doesn't sound like a religious experience.

"You may not believe but I felt the spaghetti monsters light in my soul so I know the truth"

"I was walking down the street and the spirit of Odin pushed me out of the way of a speeding car. So I know it works"

Kind of thing.

 

[Koryuhoka]

Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.

Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.

That was ok, they did not know before. THE WORST is after that, they INSIST on keeping the traditional, refuse to modify, they still practice what was taught over 100 years ago hoping to have a different result. Maybe in US, people learn to be a little open minded. But in China( I can't speak for Japan and others), they honor tradition, they feel that is respect to the founder and absolutely refuse to change. Thereby, 30 years later, they still cannot get into the octagon as they have no chance to pass the elimination fights to get to big time. Instead they invalidate MMA, saying " I don't want to show because I don't want people to learn it", or " It's too deadly to use it" or " I am above all these and I have no interest to compete".

This is 2021, things work differently, MMA learn from other sports, film, analyze, figure a way to solve the puzzle rather being stubborn and start bad mouthing( very common in Hong Kong amount those so called "masters").

Please, go to youtube and look for Xu Ziaodung, that said it all. Instead of changing, they put a $20K price to anyone that can beat him. Government sanction him, make him paint his face before he can fight. Don't they ever learn? I am Chinese, I was from Hong Kong, I saw all the BS first hand. Look at how they castigated Bruce Lee because Lee combine the best of few styles and whoop their butts. You should listen all the bad mouthing and claimed they can beat Lee AFTER Lee died. I was there at the time and I heard all of it.

Classical martial arts DO have defenses against the "ground game" and other tactics used in MMA.

The fact that no one has bothered to do the work of breaking down and analyzing the movements within the forms does not make them absent. People are just too hung up on seeing "flowery" or what they consider "useless" movements that they become blinded by misconceptions.

No one in the Classical Martial Arts communities has bothered to sit and look at what is being used in MMA.

I have, what I believe is an extensive curriculum of Brazilian Jiujitsu. When I watch this material, I am constantly noticing movements in the techniques that are found in the arts I trained in, and others of which I am familiar.

I realize that BJJ is just one component of MMA.

My point is that one cannot say theirs works, but the other's does not, simply because they all contain variations of the same techniques.

One should say:

(insert name of art) martial art does not work IN THE MMA THEATRE, because those who are teaching and practicing it, are not, or do not know how to apply it in that environment.

It has to be worded that way, because I worked, for many years, in protective services - Personal, Executive/Celebrity, Music and Fashion venues. All I ever trained in was Classical Martial Arts of Okinawa and China. I had my share of live engagements and have 2 successful knife disarms. Went home unscathed every time, and I owe that to my training. No one can deny me my experiences. I also understand that was a different arena, but if we are talking about effectiveness of martial arts as a whole...

This is my issue with the MMA community. We all do the same thing. But most of us have not all been applying it in its fullness.

It is irresponsible and inexcusable for this to have happened, but do not blame the art.

 

[Flying Crane]

Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.

as can a competent kung fu guy. or karate guy. or TKD guy. or...name whatever style you want here...

 

[Flying Crane]

So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.

That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years. I watch a lot of UFC, just by the way they fight, I can even tell how old is the fight because they CONSTANTLY changing and improving.

You know how kung fu people train? You've trained kung fu? ALL of it? I mean, I realize you had a few whole months of Wing Chun, and then you followed some bad advice on iron palm and hurt yourself. So you now know all about how kung fu people train, and what place forms take in training, and what other drills and applications are part of the whole of the training? really? ...interesting...

I wish I was so knowledgeable. I only know what I do. I don't entertain fantasies of knowing what everyone else does.

 

[Argus]

Of course TMA guys can train people to be in the UFC. You see guys like Dan Kelly and Judo. Or machida or wonder boy in karate.

They just train a system that produces very good martial artists.

You potentially don't have a system that produces as high quality martial artists. And that is fine. But you seem to want to be treated as if you do have a system that does. Why do you think you get that for free?

Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...

I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.

I'm not even sure that the best UFC fighter in the world would necessarily win against an average practitioner of a given weapons based system if you give him a weapon. Sure, he may have a physical advantage and good reflexes, but he has absolutely zero experience, knowledge, and muscle memory.

Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
3. Deal with multiple opponents
4. Handle both trained and untrained opponents who are much larger than you, and who behave very differently than they do in the ring.
5. Handle a variety of weapons, including sticks, knives, swords, or even firearms?
6. Deal with an attacker who may be wielding any of the above variety of weapons.
7. Make most efficient use of bodymechanics and techniques given the very big changes that subtle differences make when wearing clothes, shoes, lack of training gear, and the potential for weapons, multiple opponents, and all other factors mentioned here? People really under estimate how much of a difference small things make. *Really*

I'd also argue that the way people behave in a non sportive combat environment is very different. Committed, unskilled attacks are not always as easy to defend from as people think, and always practicing against uncommitted, skilled opponents sort of robs you of learning what you can do in response to them. Ending a fight is all about efficiency, and taking advantage openings that your opponent gives you while not getting hit, stabbed, or cut yourself. If you don't train versus a wide range of attacks at various distances and with all sorts of implements, your performance will be suboptimal for the situation.

My argument is a case for being unspecialized. Competitive fighters must specialize highly. On the other hand, people with a more general approach to preparedness and combat must specifically avoid specializing and adopt a general approach that can deal with a much broader spectrum of threats.

Let me just give you a very tiny example of how specialization hurts: In Filipino Martial Arts, most people train with a light weight rattan stick of exactly 28 inches. However, the moment you pick up a fighting weight stick twice the weight, or a stick that is a little longer or shorter, or indeed a blade or machete, things become extremely awkward if you haven't handled that specific length, weight, and shape or nature (blade versus impact) weapon before, and the nature of what you can and can't do with each one changes a lot more than you would think. If you always train with that one implement of a certain size and weight, I'm sure you can compete well in a stick fighting match. But you will be far less effective when wielding anything other than that 28 inch light weight rattan stick that you spend all your time training with.

Then, there's the nature of the sportive context in which you test your skills. Some people treat the stick as a stick. Some treat it as a blade. Others seem to totally ignore what would be, without protective equipment, lethal shots to the head and rush in for to grapple or take down, which I can't really understand. Decided norms around competition hugely affect how you test your art, and who would come out on top if you were competing.

That's just an example of minor differences, and applies across the board to things like wearing or not wearing gloves, etc.

Then there are things you simply don't train for at all if your focus is purely on competition, such as multiple attackers, hitting with your bare hands, dealing with weapons, multiple attackers, concrete, and all sorts of uncertainties which do not just change what you do a little bit, but completely.

I just watched a video of two trained, very competent sports fighters get into a street fight with a larger group of random people. They did really good, until one of the random guys picked up part a large piece of construction lumber laying around, and swung at one of them. Not knowing what to do, his natural, trained reaction was to back off and try to get out of range, and he wound up getting hit squarely in the head, knocked to the ground unconscious, and stomped on. You can say all you want that "oh, I know better than to do that" and "I can deal with X or Y" but until you've trained to do so and have ingrained and make it second nature, you had better think twice about whether or not you can, indeed, do what you say you can.

 

[Alan0354]

Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.

I can see why you laugh at my post. You only worry about facing people that don't know anything. I am sure a competent boxer can handle most untrained people, just like I said even if I do weight training, the fact that I am stronger than someone that doesn't know how to fight, I can throw him around without knowing any MA.

Why are we talking about technique against ordinary people that don't know anything? Anything you train is better than nothing!!! Even if you do weight training, it's better off than ones that don't because you can throw them around. That doesn't mean weight training is effective in beating people!!!

You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.

Also, I NEVER assume people don't know how to fight, I assume they do. How can you keep talking about facing someone that don't?!!! You might be in for a brutal awakening!!! Hell, I spent almost 3 years in TKD, 9 months in Judo and some Wing Chun, I have been keeping in shape for the last 30+ years not only on this, but weight training. If I look at people that don't know how to fight, of cause chances are I can whoop their butt regardless of their age and can be even a little bigger than me!!! BUT, I NEVER think like that. I learn to be humble, assuming everyone know and learn how to fight.

Hell, I can still out bench press, out bicep cure and out lift some young kids in the gym, BUT, I mainly looking at those that bench 225lbs or even 315lbs and bicep cure over 50lbs dumbbells. YOU COMPARE WITH THE STRONG, NOT WITH THE WEAK!!! Hell, I join a workmen's gym rather the yuppy gym. I've been to gyms that it's not common for men to bench press over 135lbs!!!! I do NOT want to go to those gyms to feel good!!! Hell, now I work out at home, I still do pushup with feet on the chain, wearing 60lbs weight jacket and do 5 sets of 22reps of pushups. AGAIN, I am 68!!!

Now I am working very hard on stick fight, I assume people know MA, this still gives me a distinct advantage over them as I have a cane.

I guess this is funny. We should only talk about facing people that doesn't know anything.