The fight response.

jks9199

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That exercise is used by one of my old instructors who at one stage was head of Australian Krav Maga under Eyal Yanilov.
The exercise is a desensitisation experience , only one of many drills , most of them are done from the fence position , but for a brief time this is done in close.
It is beneficial , in that the person will get somewhat used to being yelled and sworn at and will be able to remain calm under pressure and try and think tactically instead of freaking out when targeted by in your face aggression.

All the self defence gurus seem to be American on your list.
You might not believe it mate , but there are actually other people in the world that are doing good work in this area , not just Americans.

Yep, they happen to be American (US or Canadian); not surprisingly, I'm most familiar with them. I'm quite sure there are others in the world doing good work, though perhaps not getting the attention or publicity. You might note that I did say "starting point."

But I'll stand by my comments about your desensitization drill. You're practicing standing at zero-range, and letting someone be abusive. Why? Does it teach something useful --or is there another way to practice a response that will be beneficial and desensitize you? It might work as PART of a much larger program -- but especially as a stand-alone offering? Nope, not something I want to ingrain in my students. It's just like a lot of so-called scenario training. I've seen stuff set up to prove the instructors can stack the deck and beat the students... and, at the opposite end, scenarios designed solely to allow the student to succeed, no matter what they do. A scenario should be designed to allow the student to succeed, IF they do the right things. This isn't necessarily a cookie cutter response -- but there should be milestones and keys to define success. It's complicated and hard; much more than just "lets do something... you're walking down a dark alley, and a guy jumps you..."
 
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Kframe

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Mook jong man, I don't think your drill would be useful for me. It goes against my coach teaches us for self defense. Do not let people get that close to you, especially belligerent and aggressive ones. I think that drill might instill bad practices. Such as your students allowing people to get so close to them, that there defenses are compromised. Sure its probably a good way to desensitize to verbal abuse, I don't think that is worth the bad Martial habit that gets drilled.

JKS ill check out the authors you mentioned, thanks for the suggestion.

Ill tell you, I don't really want to experience that again. Not pleasant in the least. Especially not being able to sleep for 2 hours afterword..

I am honestly questioning my training tho. Do I really need ground grappling, or should I focus more on my striking defense and standing grappling and control....
 

mook jong man

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Mook jong man, I don't think your drill would be useful for me. It goes against my coach teaches us for self defense. Do not let people get that close to you, especially belligerent and aggressive ones. I think that drill might instill bad practices. Such as your students allowing people to get so close to them, that there defenses are compromised. Sure its probably a good way to desensitize to verbal abuse, I don't think that is worth the bad Martial habit that gets drilled.

JKS ill check out the authors you mentioned, thanks for the suggestion.

Ill tell you, I don't really want to experience that again. Not pleasant in the least. Especially not being able to sleep for 2 hours afterword..

I am honestly questioning my training tho. Do I really need ground grappling, or should I focus more on my striking defense and standing grappling and control....

You lot are missing the point.
It is only a very tiny part of the overall training and is not even done that often .
Just because you do it a few times doesn't mean your suddenly going to go around letting people get in range to headbutt you.

99 percent of the training is conducted from the fence position , with your arms extended out in front of you to keep the potential attacker at bay.
From that fence position we will also train our Wing Chun defences against common attacks.

You might want to do some research on Geoff Thompson , he developed the fence.
Now I know he's not American , but hey you can't have everything.
 

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I think scenario training can be helpful when training in your martial art of choice. When i studied Kenpo the training was heavily scenario based and we did a lot of pressure testing drills. The main things i noticed when doing the pressure testing scenarios was that i had tunnel vision, received 'auditory exclusion' (another topic in its own right) and my fitness which is pretty good turned terrible in about 5 seconds.

Since becoming a Police officer i still do experience the above mentioned things under pressure but i have learned to deal with them when put in a bad situation. Small things like when my knee shakes i will say to myself "righto, switch on".

In all honesty however i think you could train scenarios, do RBSD or anything else which is around these days and it still won't help you too much. The only thing you will take from it (which could save your life) is knowing how your body will react under pressure. I don't think going through different techniques etc in your head will do much good. It may work against you to be honest.

Experience is the key in these situations and unfortunately it isn't something you will learn in your dojo or kwoon.

This video by Geoff Thompson may help you reevaluate more than your training.

 
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jks9199

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I believe in scenario training, as I do think it can provide an insight into how you would probably react in a real situation. The usual 'bullring' idea works for my students, basically surround you in a circle with everyone jeering and shouting from the outside. 1 attacks and only stops attacking once you have got them to the ground, then another attacks. Obviously this in then stepped up that the time between the attackers gets shorter and shorter, so at some point the guy in the middle will have to deal with multiple attackers, normally this continues until they are overwhelmed. Really works wonders as when the pressure builds up all technique goes out of the window and the person in the middle just reacts with what comes naturally to them.

On another note, I find it fascinating how people react in these situations, the OP was literally high on adrenaline, pumped with muscles itching to go whilst finding it difficult to think and eventually explaining he had tunnel vision. I have unfortunately been in similar situations or 'real' fight situations and I have shared the elevated heart rate and deep breathing, but I found that my brain calmed and I was able to think clearly and this enabled me to logically deal with the situation and I was intensely focused with my awareness peaked. Interesting differences, in my opinion :)

Adrenalization is a survival process. At moderate levels, it enhances you for fight/flight. Blood pulls in from the extremities, reducing blood loss, heart rate increases to speed oxygen and other stuff through the body, and so on. Heart rate is kind of the flag; as your heart rate increases and you pass out of that optimum adrenalization level, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and what might best be described as stupidity (massive interference with logical thought) sets in.

Freezing is more complex. Some freezes are locks in "what do I do?" (OODA Loop or decision paralysis) or "Oh my gawd! This is happening?!" (sometimes denial, sometimes just plain shock) reactions while others are a hold over from an instinctive "if I don't move, the sabre tooth tiger may not see me and won't eat me."
 

geezer

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K-Frame --just to let you know, I wasn't trying to rag on you before. You probably handled the situation better than I would have ...especially when I was younger. I used to have some anger management issues. I still have a short fuse when woken up like that in the middle of the night. But, I've come to realize that whenever possible it's best to de-escalate and defuse situations like that without fighting. And that's really hard when the adrenaline dump hits.
 

Ediaan

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In our martial arts school, I have found that if we put full head gear (with a face cage), chest proctectors, gum guards and groin boxes on and simulate fighting scenarios - a sort of anything goes - you get closer to the real thing than usual.

You will never be prepared for any situation where adrenaline will pump and where you need to either fight or run away - or freeze.

The most important thing is to constantly engage with people about fear psychology and to understand what happens when you are in that situation. For the martial artist, adrenaline in a self defence sitaution can either be your best friend or your worst enemy.
 

chinto

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the more you train the more you will tend to react from that training even with an Adrenalin dump. The Big thing is to train hard and often, sparring will help, as will good scenario type things to some extent. the full armor all out will help to. The thing to remember is you FUNCTIONED with the adrenalin dump. you will over time tend to handle that adrenalin dump better and better. So train hard and also remember that in this case as in many NOT FIGHTING was more productive and the right thing.

The more you train the more you will find that some responses when needed will just kind of happen. in the Okinawan and Japanese arts its called "no mind" its where that block or strike or grab or what have you just happens with out conscious thought. Some people call it fighting on instinct, but really its the result of long hours of training hard.
 

Ediaan

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the more you train the more you will tend to react from that training even with an Adrenalin dump. The Big thing is to train hard and often, sparring will help, as will good scenario type things to some extent. the full armor all out will help to. The thing to remember is you FUNCTIONED with the adrenalin dump. you will over time tend to handle that adrenalin dump better and better. So train hard and also remember that in this case as in many NOT FIGHTING was more productive and the right thing.

The more you train the more you will find that some responses when needed will just kind of happen. in the Okinawan and Japanese arts its called "no mind" its where that block or strike or grab or what have you just happens with out conscious thought. Some people call it fighting on instinct, but really its the result of long hours of training hard.
Exactly, we call it musle memory in the WT art and it is really just constant practice until it becomes habit and then second nature.
 

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Just some thoughts here...

The reality is that everyone is different in regards to the adrenal response. What invokes a strong adrenal response in one person may barely effect another person. A lot of the response is based on perceptions and belief systems. That being said, it's not something we can eliminate. We can train to minimize the effects and learn to harness it for our advantage but we can't eliminate it. Considering that it's a major survival mechanism I am not sure I would want to eliminate it even if I could.

The adrenal response invoked during martial arts training or even super-hard sparring is not of the same intensity as dealing with a potentially violent situation. Dealing with an intense verbal engagement is not of the same intensity as dealing with an attacker intent on harming or killing you. That being the case, we can't truly replicate situations that invoke such an intense adrenal response, not safely anyway. However, through properly constructed scenarios and drills we can invoke an intense adrenal response that not only allows us to experience this in training but helps us to understand the ideal tactics and strategies that we will be able to successfully use under stress. In order to do this effectively you need to work with someone that has experience setting up these scenarios and drills. Sure you can try some of them with training partners and friends but they work best when you don't know the "attacker" well and when this person has experience invoking an adrenal response in others.

There are a variety of programs out there that specialize in training with and through the adrenal response. The major ones have been doing it for over 40 years. They have worked with enough people, both trained and untrained, to learn what statistically works and what doesn't. I would suggest seeking out one of these courses, which generally run from just a few hours up to a couple of days in length. These are not about converting people to their way of doing things as much as it is a way to learn how to employ what you already have for real self-defense. Check out FAST Defense, Model Mugging, Impact Self-Defense, RAW Power, or any of the similar programs. Yes, they use those funny looking large-headed suits but those are more for protecting the instructors than providing accurate targeting.

Hope that helps,
Steve
 

GaryR

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Definitely text book adrenaline dump. I addressed ways to deal with it here - http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/109289-The-Way-Of-the-Combat-Mind.

Here is a good blog: http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/

You need adrenal stress training. Good on you for having some control. But, with some scenario training you will have more wits about you for the lot of it. Sparring just won't really get you there.

Breaking up a fight takes some finesse, a proper use of distance and DE-escalation skill. It seems as though your adrenal dump prevented those things, but it's good you didn't thump the guy trying to leave or for putting his hand on your shoulder! Others had some great author recommendations. But I would only go with American Authors (kidding). Gather some material and craft some scenarios. Be sure to have good gear.

Best,

G
 

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Just got in a bar fight last night, the other table started throwing bottles when we retaliated and most of my buddies ran from the scene except for 4 of us including the one who started the fight.i don't want to go to detail but here is my point.

We are all fratmen in our table(from different fraternities,no stereotype please), we had our own shares of fights and I have seen most of them fight with other guys from different frats or other people(ok, you can stereotype now, jk), but the situation was very different last night. There were only 5 people who fought with us and I thought that we had it because of our number but they all started running. They didn't even catch the guys when they were fleeing, they just watched and froze. Not that I am saying that we should have done some serious damage to the guys or I want revenge(I wasn't even hurt badly, just a minor cut) but I was amazed that they froze considering that they have experiences in fighting. I am now thinking that you don't always have that "fight response" even if you have a lot of experience.

just wanted to share this because I am really pissed because one of us got bloody
 

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Just got in a bar fight last night, the other table started throwing bottles when we retaliated and most of my buddies ran from the scene except for 4 of us including the one who started the fight.i don't want to go to detail but here is my point.

We are all fratmen in our table(from different fraternities,no stereotype please), we had our own shares of fights and I have seen most of them fight with other guys from different frats or other people(ok, you can stereotype now, jk), but the situation was very different last night. There were only 5 people who fought with us and I thought that we had it because of our number but they all started running. They didn't even catch the guys when they were fleeing, they just watched and froze. Not that I am saying that we should have done some serious damage to the guys or I want revenge(I wasn't even hurt badly, just a minor cut) but I was amazed that they froze considering that they have experiences in fighting. I am now thinking that you don't always have that "fight response" even if you have a lot of experience.

just wanted to share this because I am really pissed because one of us got bloody

Sweeping statement: Alot of folks have to work themselves up to get their fight response. Then they have an excuse (the build up).
 

DennisBreene

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From an older post of mine, in a similar thread:



How do you train for it? I'm going to go against Dirty Dog here, and say that yes, simulations can absolutely help. Provided they give a realistic sense of the adrenaline (often to a lesser degree, but can, and should, be scaled up), then they do help a lot.

The thing is, the form of adrenaline found in sparring is very different to the adrenaline experienced in a sudden, violent assault... so sparring, believe it or not, is not a very good analogue for handling a violent assault. Oh, and when you mentioned that you defaulted to boxing, it wasn't that you had more time in it, it was that you (unconsciously) believe that it is more powerful. That's really it. Under the adrenaline, you went to what you (unconsciously) believe is the most powerful... and media (movies, television etc) have reinforced that belief. Honestly, I'm far from surprised that you'd default to it...

Mr. Parker's description of the adrenal response is generally accurate. In reality, the freeze response is the first response in almost all unfamiliar stress situations. It is followed by fight or flight. Almost all training in military combat, aviation, first responders, etc. has a significant component of drilling to move the individual past the freeze response as quickly as possible. Clearly, freezing in the face of armed combat, while common, has a negative impact on survival. The quality/intensity of the training combined with the individual's make up are major factors in how one deals with the adrenaline dump. As for certain fight scenarios; bars, frat boy's and the like, I fail to understand the attraction in indulging in what on the surface seems like gratuitous violence.
 

martial sparrer

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ALL HAIL THE RESPONSE FROM A LITTLE MORE EXPERIENCED MARTIAL ARTIST:THIS STORY OF YOURS is an example of what it means to discover the true essence of what being a martial artist is all about! you should feel exhilarated my friend......!!!!!! if you had channelled your energy into combat you would have destroyed your opponent.....channel that energy into crispness of mind.....the other day I was lying in a ravine and 4 teenagers that looked like thugs came across my path....I gambled with my life....I should have got up.....but I contuned to lie their because I knew I would conjure up diffusible power within me.....I continued toi lie their and I took the chance that they would attack me....in the end they did not....and I was thankful for that....
 

Cyriacus

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what is "the build up"?thanks

Anything from pushing, shoving, yelling, posturing, tensing up and getting angry whilst pretending to try and look calm (that thing people do where they go red and start shaking a bit, but are clearly just pretending to be calm, and they know it), arguing for the sake of arguing, waiting for the other person to do something back (i push you, then you push me. now i feel like i have 'permission' to push back)... Anything, really.
 

Chris Parker

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Mr. Parker's description of the adrenal response is generally accurate. In reality, the freeze response is the first response in almost all unfamiliar stress situations. It is followed by fight or flight. Almost all training in military combat, aviation, first responders, etc. has a significant component of drilling to move the individual past the freeze response as quickly as possible. Clearly, freezing in the face of armed combat, while common, has a negative impact on survival. The quality/intensity of the training combined with the individual's make up are major factors in how one deals with the adrenaline dump. As for certain fight scenarios; bars, frat boy's and the like, I fail to understand the attraction in indulging in what on the surface seems like gratuitous violence.

Agreed that "freeze" is the first response, in that the first thing that needs to happen is that the person needs to assess what's going on... but I was meaning "freeze" as a response to be the continuous reaction to stress, rather than just the initial (immediate) one... and, in that sense, "freeze" is separate from "fight" the same way "flight" is. Absolutely agreed on the appeal of gratuitous violence, of course.

ALL HAIL THE RESPONSE FROM A LITTLE MORE EXPERIENCED MARTIAL ARTIST:THIS STORY OF YOURS is an example of what it means to discover the true essence of what being a martial artist is all about! you should feel exhilarated my friend......!!!!!! if you had channelled your energy into combat you would have destroyed your opponent.....channel that energy into crispness of mind.....the other day I was lying in a ravine and 4 teenagers that looked like thugs came across my path....I gambled with my life....I should have got up.....but I contuned to lie their because I knew I would conjure up diffusible power within me.....I continued toi lie their and I took the chance that they would attack me....in the end they did not....and I was thankful for that....

..... Huh?
 

DennisBreene

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Agreed that "freeze" is the first response, in that the first thing that needs to happen is that the person needs to assess what's going on... but I was meaning "freeze" as a response to be the continuous reaction to stress, rather than just the initial (immediate) one... and, in that sense, "freeze" is separate from "fight" the same way "flight" is. Absolutely agreed on the appeal of gratuitous violence, of course.



..... Huh?

I generally agree with your assessment of the freeze response. I was refering to the reflexive response to freeze. It is not a concious choice and generally precedes the subsequent response to run or fight (again reflex driven). That assumes that one survives the freeze when one is vulnerable to attack. Hence the heavy emphasis on training to shorten the time one is stuck in "freeze". This is differant than a concious choice to stop and assess a situation before proceding. I have experienced the freeze response ( a pickup truck crested a blind hill and was bearing down on me as I fumbled with an unfamiliar motorcycle. I literally froze and was incapable of responding to the imminant danger). It is not pleasant, to say the least.
 

thefightersheart

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Thanks for the post, I feel that your psychology is half the battle, which you have already explained clearly. I have been training with the below recently, which I hope offers you some value


Cheers
 
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